Should the difficulty of the game be increased ?

General Discussion
Probably not. Most ppl already struggle hard with playing with the current level of the game as is. Increasing the complexity of it would just make ppl rage more.

If you do increase the skill ceiling you can maybe do it on a single map where there are more mechanics to play around with that would reward the savvy player.

Another way to do it is on certain heroes who reward the dedicated like alarak, medivh, kelthuzad. Or through talents like tracer has one that rewards you with more damage if you time your reloads correctly.
09/18/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Sunfire
The problem is that when something or someone is oppressive, people complains instead of getting better and counter it, this wasnt the case until all the garrosh unfun thing, that opened this babysitting for people that don't want a challenge, just someone that kicks all the bowling pins when they throw the ball so they can start jumping in happyness instead of making them get better, well, at least in some cases

Agreed 100% . all that simply makes players mentaly weaker and less able to adapt and end up typing GG after 2 min of game
09/18/2018 09:25 AMPosted by Werbs713
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Not everyones plays rank and it doesnt fix the issue .

Here is a simple exemple of what i meant . if we take tassadar's force wall . its always a wall of 3 blocks ( force field) that are perpendicular to his line of sign/ casting point. If we were to make it a 3 charge skill but each of them would set 1 block at a time it would change a whole lot how a player can us it. A skillful player wouls be able to wall still but will not be limited to the dirrection of the wall. This way a skilled played would have more option and a average or low skilled player might fail at the placement at first but with practice and improvement they will be able to do the same as other better player.

Seing player managing to do something that they cant can be that one thing to push certain player improve , toxic players are most likely going to drop the character all together and pick something easier for them. Would it be hell for us at first ? Probably but it might be a way to increase the skills of the average players .


Worst
Idea
Ever


I dont mind my idea being bad but in this case , why would more option like in this exemple for tass be so bad lol ? It brings more option , and you can actually play around with the shape to better suit the situation at hand. Of course it would require being faster and more precise but why would it be so bad ?
So it's not really clear what you are hoping to accomplish... that Tassadar Force Wall idea doesn't so much raise the skill cap as it just changes the ability. The fact that orientation and size are fixed are a limitation of Force Wall, and being positioned to take advantage of that is part of the skill cap for the ability. Changing it to be 3 separate casts does take more dexterity to get the same effect, but it is far more forgiving in relation to positioning and timing. So your proposed change will make it better and easier to use in some situations and worse in others, the ability is different but not necessarily more difficult to use.

Lets also take for example ConsumeSouls. There are two sides to the argument there and both say the other side just wants to cater to noobs and make the game easier. Group A says global damage at the push of a button is too easy and is an ability to keep noob players feeling strong. Group B says that people that want it removed are just noobs because it can be countered by holding onto defensive's or begin near a healer. Both sides accuse the other of just wanting things easy and no matter what happens Blizz is going to be accused of catering to noobs.
I think a good path to take would be creating more heroes like Li Li. She is very easy to do okay with. But if you want to truly master her and work with 100% of her potential, she's not nearly as simple as a lot of people seem to think. Easy to learn, hard to master heroes would please both the ultra casual and the hardcore parts of the fanbase.
09/18/2018 11:36 AMPosted by WhoYouExpect
So it's not really clear what you are hoping to accomplish... that Tassadar Force Wall idea doesn't so much raise the skill cap as it just changes the ability. The fact that orientation and size are fixed are a limitation of Force Wall, and being positioned to take advantage of that is part of the skill cap for the ability. Changing it to be 3 separate casts does take more dexterity to get the same effect, but it is far more forgiving in relation to positioning and timing. So your proposed change will make it better and easier to use in some situations and worse in others, the ability is different but not necessarily more difficult to use.

Lets also take for example ConsumeSouls. There are two sides to the argument there and both say the other side just wants to cater to noobs and make the game easier. Group A says global damage at the push of a button is too easy and is an ability to keep noob players feeling strong. Group B says that people that want it removed are just noobs because it can be countered by holding onto defensive's or begin near a healer. Both sides accuse the other of just wanting things easy and no matter what happens Blizz is going to be accused of catering to noobs.


the thread isnt so necessarily about tassadar's force wall but about the "little" things that arent present to push a player to improve, like tracer's lock and loaded. i wasnt a tracer player and even i was against hte whole recall shows the location , how had is it to remember where she was 3 seconds ago !? .... i guess it was too hard because blizzard cave in again to those players who complained about it .

09/18/2018 10:50 AMPosted by PlaymakeRR
Most ppl already struggle hard with playing with the current level of the game as is. Increasing the complexity of it would just make ppl rage more.


the game isn't even that hard to begin with and people struggle with and and when they fail they blame everything but themselves, it simply need to be increased where it needs to be , not everywhere, not every characters need to be " very hard" , we were all new at one point and the "easy" heroes are the perfect instructions for that were they can learn simple yet effective tricks off a character and learn other heroes as they fight them until they feel confidant to move on to something more challenging if they want it.

on many occasions people complained on the forum to nerf a character and blizzard just gave up instead of telling them to get better since many other players could manage it just fine. seriously how many time did we noticed a nerf or a change "to avoid frustration" ? way too much in my oppinion.
Simply increasing the skill ceiling without increasing rewards makes people worse at the game,not better ( a good example is one of the recent genji nerfs where the reset window on swift strike was decreased to 1.5 seconds but the damage wasn't really buffed to compensate, making his winrate drop further). The entire point of having a high skill ceiling is to unlock more rewards for getting better at the game.

The big problem with HOTS is that the developers mostly balance around bad players. Chromie's nerf was based almost exclusively on feedback from sub-platinum players. Nova is constantly nerfed due to bronze 5 QM only players. Valeera received from nerfs due to low skill players. Genji and Hanzo keep receiving nerfs because aluminum 99 players who only play AI got killed by a stray swift strike or Hanzo Q once because they refused to retreat at 5% hp. Tracer's burst damage was nerfed due to low skill complaints (with a buff to her AA to compensate, leading to an INCREASED winrate in higher level play, revealing just how much the devs listen to crap players). Diablo's initial rework (which nerfed him really hard) was due to low skill complaints about him being "oppressive", which was EVENTUALLY fixed with some much needed buffs. Sylvanas' trait was nerfed because low skill players thought her trait was unfair.

Easy solution: balance the game 99% around Masters and Pro Play. Balancing around Pro Players ensures that heroes are actually GOOD and balancing around Masters (aka some of the best players in non-pro environments) can ensure that the average HOTS player is actually capable of doing well with heroes if they simply become better at the game. both of those combined could ensure a healthy balance between heroes being good and heroes being viable without needing to be a pro player.
The game already has a very high skill ceiling.

If you play Versus AI against a hero like Maiev you will notice that. AI being AI has no problem landing perfect 2+ hits with Fan of Knives at cooldown rate. Cluster together and even with a 3 level advantage Maive will have you dead in no time.

Now do that as Maive yourself... You are always slower than cooldown speed and due to the awkward shape it is very hard to land 2+ hits with Fan of Knives. The AI even factors you playing Maiev into account when playing so will purposely not cluster together.

Sure you can just out macro the AI since the AI macro is trash tier. But I have yet to see a human pull off what the AI does when it comes to playing Maiev and using Fan of Knives.
Probably not, its a casual game.
Hang on, not sure if im reading this right.

You dont think a typical player is very skilled, so your solution to the problem is to make the game harder?
09/18/2018 03:19 PMPosted by robertsonb
Hang on, not sure if im reading this right.

You dont think a typical player is very skilled, so your solution to the problem is to make the game harder?


If the game does a better job of showing WHY you are playing poorly there could be improvement there
uh...people keep using the word skill ceiling, but it sounds like you're all talking about skill floor. Am I the only one confused here?

Anyways,
09/18/2018 09:23 AMPosted by Werbs713
honestly they should pick QM, UR, or HL and balance for that mode

Not sure how well this sits with me considering there are pros and cons of each as we've seen in the past like with stealth, but agree with the e-sports part.
Recently they've only been dumbing it down.
09/18/2018 03:19 PMPosted by robertsonb
Hang on, not sure if im reading this right.

You dont think a typical player is very skilled, so your solution to the problem is to make the game harder?

Yeah pretty much lol but its has to be in a way that make sense.
Hard for the sake of being hard simply makes artificial difficulty.
If done proprely id expect people to improve to acheive what others have managed no problem . while it would cause toxic players to remove themselves since most of them that throws game and trolls thend to be poor performers anyway. It'd be a win for everyone.
...

Worst
Idea
Ever


I dont mind my idea being bad but in this case , why would more option like in this exemple for tass be so bad lol ? It brings more option , and you can actually play around with the shape to better suit the situation at hand. Of course it would require being faster and more precise but why would it be so bad ?


Needless complexity. Making things harder just for the sake of making things harder is not a good thing. Making an ability like Force Wall marginally better in corner cases (pun intended) in exchange for making it a worse experience to use overall is not a good trade. It just makes it a clunkier, less efficient ability to use. (See Nova's Snipe Master).

'Rewarding skill' is a rather empty basis for changing things. It sounds very nice at first glance, but when you think about it, it's completely unnecessary. Skill is what lets players use their abilities effectively in the first place. Skill is what lets people actually do useful things with their Force Wall. Being better at knowing when and where to place it is already rewarded by having a more effective ability. Even the most basic skillshot rewards skill by allowing skilled people to deal more damage with them.

Besides that, your whole idea of 'training' the player base by making abilities harder is wrong. Player skill doesn't work like that. If it did, Heroes like Hanzo or Genji would've been at the top of the leaderboards. Players don't magically become better when playing harder abilities. They just do worse using them because they don't have the skill to fully utilize them.

toxic players are most likely going to drop the character all together and pick something easier for them


If this were true, there wouldn't be cases of people being bad at their Hero in the first place. But as you can clearly see, people do actually (try to) play Heroes they're not good at (yet).
09/18/2018 06:01 AMPosted by MySelf
Should we increase the skill ceilling of the game / characters?

We constantly have people complaining about certain heroes when its an obvious case of L2P.

Im not talking about things like last hit on minnion i find that counter productive to a team game but mechanic in game like maps characters and so on that if the player wants to play higher level its them that need to adjust and not the game lowering its own standard every patch ( however i am looking for the 2 new rework, they looks pretty nice so far).
It seen like if a player cant play right they have no incentive to get better.
Nothing will ever tell a player in this game " you suck, now get better!"

I simply want this snow flake / weak minded player mentality gone at this point because i think its brining this whole thing down.


only if you want to beat a game that is now a dead horse.

you can get 20 min ques in ranked atm.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum