Why do people ignore shrines in Dragon Shrire?

General Discussion
I keep asking, and asking them to drop everything and focus on shrines, but they don't listen. They try to get mercenaries, but I told them that shrines are more important, and ignoring it will quite bluntly, cost us the game. They talk about my numbers, but I don't care about that. They wonder why I keep pinging a retreat in mid, because I don't want us crowding up mid while shines are up. And when a remotely more organized team gets the dragon, they blame me. How can I get them to realize that the shrines are THE most important aspect of the map?
Why do people take a boss instead of pushing with the curse, why do people spread living bomb like it's a warm hug, why do people grab a mercenary camp after an enemy team wipe at 25 mins into the game instead of pushing a tower or enemy core?

Cause they are people bub, the do random stuff. But I get where you're coming from. The one that annoys me the most is the weird need people have at the start of the game to just brawl mid instead of soaking.
Why do people still buy the new iphone on day 1 every time a new one comes out?
Why do people still not know why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?
09/20/2018 09:00 PMPosted by Ephraim
Why do people still buy the new iphone on day 1 every time a new one comes out?
Why do people still not know why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch?


Lol <3
Just answer the original question.
09/20/2018 09:22 PMPosted by SickoPsycho
Just answer the original question.


People did, putting it bluntly some people just don't know, care or see a win condition when it's dancing in their face.
Just as important as it is to be mindful of taking the objective, it's important to be mindful of which fights you can take. Here's an example:

Your Greymane is soloing bruiser camp. Your Yrel is midlane, matching the enemy Xul. The rest of the enemy team minus Xul is bottom lane, fighting your team for the shrine. Yrel and Greymane are doing other things. What is the right call?

It is to back out and protect your bot towers, or look for bot camp if the wave is already cleared and if Greymane can come fast enough in cast a 5v5 breaks out on your siege giants.

What do most people in Gold do? They take the 3v4 botlane, lose a member, and proceed to lose 1-2 more as they feed onto the shrine, trying to capture it against 4 people. The people with enough map awareness to at least see Greymane was on a camp after they've died will now ping Greymane, thinking Greymane was at fault for taking the camp and not teleporting to the team to rescue them from their tragic lack of awareness. Yrel will also receive pings, but she will say "I was matching Xul" and your team will respond that it doesn't matter, she needed to teleport to the botlane, as well.

Moral of the story: Look at your map. Are they going to capture a DK? (Do they have/are they about to have both shrines?) If yes, take a winnable fight on a shrine or a winnable fight in mid (equal talents, equal numbers). If they are able to capture a shrine and put you in a position where you have to fight to force them off, you need to rotate mid to defend and win the fight there. If they are able to win a 4v5 in the botlane while their sololane is missing and they have top shrine and are winning botlane, back out of bot and take the fight in mid.

If they are not about to capture the shrine, TAKE YOUR AVAILABLE CAMPS or look for a rotation you can catch and gank or just outrotate them. You don't have to drop everything and look for the DK immediately. Camps are there to create pressure to help you swing things enough in your favor that you can eventually capture the DK. Many games, people don't even capture the first dragon knight until like 10-15 minutes in. That isn't bad, that's normal. Don't !@#$ing ping your teammates if you took a bad fight and they weren't there, unless you ACTUALLY NEEDED to take the fight (I.E. they control top lane and are about to win bot, but they only have 4 people and you have 3-4 and one person missing doing a camp. THAT. THAT is when it is bad to take a camp.
as others have said: there are alot of reasons.

but I've noticed something; I'm usually a leader type person, if people will listen and follow my suggestions, it almost always goes well; however there have been many times where I would make a call, it's a good call, but they ignore it, and yet, in the end we still manage to win, so it can sometimes be a little hard to make the right calls at the right time.

Or we can always just blame other people, without bothering to look at ourselves to figure out how we could of handled the situation better... but why would we do that right?

(also FYI, I do in fact think people are naturally pretty stupid, so sometimes you need to talk in a way that is the least aggressive, and, especially as a Support character, help THEM, a person is often MUCH more agreeable after you've saved their dumb life)
09/20/2018 08:27 PMPosted by SickoPsycho
I keep asking, and asking them to drop everything and focus on shrines, but they don't listen. They try to get mercenaries, but I told them that shrines are more important, and ignoring it will quite bluntly, cost us the game. They talk about my numbers, but I don't care about that. They wonder why I keep pinging a retreat in mid, because I don't want us crowding up mid while shines are up. And when a remotely more organized team gets the dragon, they blame me. How can I get them to realize that the shrines are THE most important aspect of the map?


1. people will mostly just focus on fighting above all else (Including their core getting wrecked)

2. Taking merc camps is somtimes a good idea to force the enemy to pick between stopping the mercs and contesting the shrine.
09/20/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Andminus
(also FYI, I do in fact think people are naturally pretty stupid, so sometimes you need to talk in a way that is the least aggressive, and, especially as a Support character, help THEM, a person is often MUCH more agreeable after you've saved their dumb life)

So this is actually a pretty important concept in 2018. I don't know if people here are really thinking about it, but we are in a pretty rough time for humanity in general. There's a lot of potential for things to go wrong right now in a lot of ways, and a lot of our ability to survive comes down to our ability to work together. This was kind of nicely summarized in this article I randomly clicked on about cognitive enhancement lol: https://slate.com/technology/2018/09/genetic-engineering-to-stop-doomsday.html

Consider apocalyptic terrorists first. Individuals of this sort are inspired by Manichaean belief systems according to which those outside one’s religious clique—the infidels, the reprobates, the damned—are perceived as the unholy enemies of all that is good in the universe. This harsh division of humanity into two distinct groups is facilitated in part by a failure to understand where others are coming from, to see the world from another person’s perspective. Cognitive enhancements could theoretically achieve this end by enabling people to gain greater knowledge of other cultures, political persuasions, religious worldviews, and so on.

Now I mean, yeah, cognitive enhancements can maybe improve peoples' thoughtfulness and understanding and patience and whatnot, but you know, there are plenty of other methods of making remarkable enhancements in your already-born-and-living self, without having to, you know, do eugenics. There is meditation and exercise and simple thought experiments, even something as simple as exercising mindfulness and a little bit of bravery when you're talking to anyone else, should anything in the conversation expose a vulnerability or a disagreement, all of these things improve your intellignce and your compassion. Most everyone "deep down has that inner voice" telling them what they would have said if their highest self was talking.

Think about some of those scenes you see in the movies where some extremely misbehaved schoolkid is, instead of punished by the teacher, empathized with, and the teacher goes through some adventure of seeing the child's homelife and learning more about who the kid really is and everyones' relationships change and all of a sudden the kid is like someone completely new, the teacher has some profound aura of wisdom and humility around them and everyone has a happy ending except for one child, and his family and friends - the younger brother of the misbehaved schoolkid - who, halfway through the film, was tragically killed in a drive-by shooting. :(

I'm remembering some pretty specific scenes I think, obviously, you can tell; but yeah - people are kinda dumb, everyone is born that way, but you can grow a lot by using your consciousness to shape your own mind and to try to be the highest version of yourself, which includes the incredible compassion you're capable of showing to others even in the most trying circumstances. And don't confuse "compassion" with niceness, but also don't confuse your criticisms and judgements of others with "the truth" or "tough love". People say and all kinds of nasty !@#$ to each other in anger that they regret, even to a small degree. That %^-* isn't true, and they know it, even if the real truth is more profoundly sad than the things they said in anger. At least the real truth is the real truth, and that's what people want and need, and that's how we're gonna make it to year 2200.

okay I'm done now
@OP Some team comps aren't even designed to take the DK, they're straight up designed to just push a lane until the keep is gone while they stall out mid/toplane with someone with strong doublesoak. After that, they take easy DKs with huge map pressure going through multiple camps in botlane, constant core pressure and they can basically end on the first DK attempt a lot of the time. This is the realm of Zarya/Auriel/Anub/Cassia, or a comp like that, and some strong doublesoaker in the offlanes. You just... push
09/20/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Ekata
@OP Some team comps aren't even designed to take the DK, they're straight up designed to just push a lane until the keep is gone while they stall out mid/toplane with someone with strong doublesoak. After that, they take easy DKs with huge map pressure going through multiple camps in botlane, constant core pressure and they can basically end on the first DK attempt a lot of the time. This is the realm of Zarya/Auriel/Anub/Cassia, or a comp like that, and some strong doublesoaker in the offlanes. You just... push


Isn't pushing with the dragon a better strategy? Pushing mid while the shrines are up seems like a severely horrid strategic blunder.
09/20/2018 11:17 PMPosted by SickoPsycho
09/20/2018 11:05 PMPosted by Ekata
@OP Some team comps aren't even designed to take the DK, they're straight up designed to just push a lane until the keep is gone while they stall out mid/toplane with someone with strong doublesoak. After that, they take easy DKs with huge map pressure going through multiple camps in botlane, constant core pressure and they can basically end on the first DK attempt a lot of the time. This is the realm of Zarya/Auriel/Anub/Cassia, or a comp like that, and some strong doublesoaker in the offlanes. You just... push


Isn't pushing with the dragon a better strategy? Pushing mid while the shrines are up seems like a severely horrid strategic blunder.

Well you aren't pushing mid by matching Xul in mid. I figure you're talking about the on-paper Yrel vs. Xul: they're just clearing the lane and leaving, or if there is threat of either team getting the DK, one is there to pick it up, and the other is there to keep the DK from getting picked up. It's important that Yrel is mid, and not fighting bot: if the mid wave crashes into your towers, they have vision on your gate and dismounting in the midlane from minions AND you are losing the exp AND you are losing tower health, so Yrel obviously needs to be there. Xul obviously needs to be there too. Does anyone else need to be there? Well, not unless there's threat of a DK getting picked up, or if the toplane is busy and someone needs to soak mid.

If you're talking about Greymane getting the bruiser camp, the bruiser camp pushes top lane, not midlane.

If mid fort ever goes up for grabs from a splitpush opportunity (where you have control over one shrine and are able to capitalize on the enemy team being busy in a different lane), you should usually just prioritize what is easiest and safest for you to accomplish. If that means you can easily take a DK, take a DK. But if you can't just force it, if you have someone who can push mid hard uncontested and the enemy team is busy doing something else and they have no threat of getting DK, and that strong pusher happens to be in the midlane, it's better to have that person push mid hard than it is to have them rotate down to help you in the fight botlane, since you guarantee value and an EXP lead with taking the fort, where with the rotation bot, you only gain the potential advantage of getting the DK for as long as that window lasts. Now, if you see an opportunity to get the DK, you should take it. But you shouldn't force it. Forcing it would be rotating the Yrel and Greymane down to fight 5v5 for bot shrine while being in control of the top shrine, while there are camps available.
09/20/2018 11:17 PMPosted by SickoPsycho

Isn't pushing with the dragon a better strategy? Pushing mid while the shrines are up seems like a severely horrid strategic blunder.

I just realized that was a reply to a different comment but I'm just gonna leave the other one there anyway lol.

You would push bot lane with that comp, not midlane. The goal is that you're winning on, in the beginning, at least one of two fronts, and not getting destroyed on the other front. If your doublesoaker can outclear their opposition, or if they are able to outtrade them, or if they are able to rotate alone against two separate lane opponents, that creates room for your botlane to push. Either because they create an EXP lead through outclear/forcing opponent out of lane, or because they draw an addition hero making botlane a 4v3 (gg). On the flip side, if your 4man wins the 4man matchup, that creates space for your doublesoaker to doublesoak because the enemy team can only afford to send 1 person up to match, and the other 4 have to defend. If the 4man-botlane push strategy doesn't get counterpicked, then it can possibly be its own win condition if executed right. So if you find yourself facing one and you can't actually contest them, do this:

Push the absolute living !@#$ out of Top lane. The problem is that the aforementioned composition (Zarya etc) is extremely good at pushing, especially if they're the ones with a Greymane and not you. But, you can still take the trade at a similar pace and lose a lot less than if you feed repeatedly in botlane trying to keep them from brute forcing your fort down in a losing matchup while doing absolutely diddly-squad else on the map. If you're unable to contest them directly in defense, rotate to the top and just accept that you're trading top for bot early on and you'll plan to use that to create map pressure later with your top bruisers and stalling/winning the botlane later.
Theoretically, on each map, we should take mercenary camps with objective.
On this map, we have as many as 3 camps on the lower alley. Sometimes it is better to focus only on bot lane and temporarily ignore the objective. In the early stages of the game, push with mercenaries brings more benefits than DK.
It is also worth noting that when we destroy the opponent's gate and fountain, it will help us win and maintain the shrine. There are a lot of tactics and game schemes, you should know them but you can not stick to one style rigidly.

Sometimes it is better to do something wrong together than something good alone. Hots is a team game and allies have to come to an agreement, a compromise.
Actually the shrines are not critical on that map. As long as your team holds control over at least 1 of them you do not need to pick up the other. You can use this to your advantage to push with the mercs dealing a lot of damage. When they finally get enough momentum to stop the push, grab other shrine and dragon them to rub salt into their wounds.

It is also worth noting that the dragon is tough but not that tough and generally low damage compared with many heroes. This limits who should be piloting the thing to prety much warriors. You do not want someone like Guldan to pilot it since that is trading hude damage for mediocre damage. Like wise you do not want your solo support to pilot it because that leaves you without support.

The dragon also needs a team push. If you grab it when most of your team is dead all it can do is stall 30 seconds odd before it is melted away.
The fact of the matter is that the early game DK is a really !@#$ty objective.

You need to control three lanes, and the first DK generally dies after killing a few towers. It's just pathetic.

Early game DK is hard to get, and close to worthless. You get more value out of destroying bot/mid fountain to give you an advantage in future fights.

The correct choice is usually to just push.

Of course late game DK is a win condition, but you generally get that after winning a teamfight anyway.
But that doesn't mean you should have 3 people in mid clearing a lane and wandering in circles on their mounts, either, looking for a fight with each other. Tough call if you're the support, since you should be with your team, but... If one of your teammates sticks around while they could be going to get bot shrine for free while the enemy controls top lane, but then as soon as the enemy team rolls into mid as 5 to collect their DK and that one person now goes botlane to try to get the shrine, like, man. I know. It sucks. But that's where proactivity and persistence pay off. Usually if the call is right and you're patient and honest about it people don't get bothered if you ping like 5x sometimes. If the enemy team has 3 people in midlane and 1 top (controlling top) and 1 bot, get someone to come down to bot with you and tell people you're taking botlane. and be specific about who. If you're Kharazim, for instance, bring your tank or bring anyone who can engage/has consistent damage, you just need to win a 2v1 in bot and your team will probably not suicide in midlane. After that, tell your camp-getting heroes to go get the siege giants in bot lane, or to help you do it, and get someone else to hold the shrine. If your calls are smart people generally don't freak out man. Go for it
09/20/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Minky
Why do people take a boss instead of pushing with the curse


People do this even in Master. The moment you activate the curse, some genius starts pinging the boss (sometimes even on the other side of the map!) and gets mad when the team doesn't follow.

Makes you wonder whether the rumors about people buying boosts is true. There is no way they personally ranked up to the top tier with this kind of game knowledge.
09/20/2018 09:22 PMPosted by SickoPsycho
Just answer the original question.
Because they are dumb AF. Better question is why are they above silver rank?

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