Lack of gameplay education in HOTS

General Discussion
We are SORELY in need of a better training program for this game. or at least tutorials that will teach people how to properly play it.

Just left a game where the junkrat said "gg report Joh" (who I was). 2 of our 5 players had 7 deaths, another had 6 deaths, the junkrat had 3, I had 2.

Notes from the game:
- enemy team had a sylvanas on cursed hollow. Pushes bottom, no one goes bottom early game, I go down there and immediately get "joh you need to be mid"....Okay so I rotate mid, junkrat and our other team members dont go combat her, sylvanas takes a fort.

- Enemy team has 2/3 and is looking to get tribute for curse, they have level 11 we have barely hit 9. I say "please soak, dont teamfight, back" etc.. etc... they say "no it's tribute we must fight!" we go in because *follow the group or whatever*. we all die.

- consistently kael'thas is face checking bushes, getting way to close to the enemy team and just dying left right and centre

- stitches on two occasions did a 1v3 and died thinking he could take them.

- multiple occasions the team kept wanting to fight a talent tier down.

and the game ends and because I'm telling them what to do correctly and they don't like the shot calls, the junkrat ends the game with saying to report me.

I can't take it anymore fam. this was a gold rank 1 game. They should know better. They should be smarter.

Playing top gold in starcraft everyone at least knew how to protect themselves against cheese (zerg rush, proxies, etc). But in this game it seems like the education level from bronze to gold/platinum is exactly the same. There is no disparity between them.

The combination of lack of gameplay education, lack of PBMMR, lack of proper HL placements, and players that have clearly been put into the wrong classifications of HL rank has pretty much ruined competitive gameplay for me.

What do I do when I get teammates that are so bad that there is literally nothing I can do to help them?

I don't know if this is a vent thread, or a "how do you cope" thread, or "how do I get past this garbage and get to the good matches" thread.

But the sad thing I feel like, is if I even ever worked my way up to diamond, from what I hear it seems like the matches are still the same rubbish....

It's just really discouraging. :( I think I need to stop for a while...
you mean the footnotes on the loading screen arent good enough?
LoL and DOTA have way way waaaaaaaaay steeper learning curves.

And those games don't have any extensive tutorials for new players either.
Players pretty much learn as they go along.

The difference is those games attract players who yearn to improve and do better and want to compete. Hardcore players.
HotS tried to attract the casual players with its shared xp, no items, no gold, no farm game design.
Well... you know the problem with casual players? They don't give a damn.
09/13/2018 08:18 PMPosted by YourFather
Well... you know the problem with casual players? They don't give a damn.
Yea... I think maybe the question should be, how does Blizzard (or maybe we players) correct this behavior?
One of the things I hate the most are the "lol guyz, my first time playin dis hero. carry plz!"

I mean, could you at least have the decency to TRY the hero in AI, so you AT LEAST know what your skills do, before you ruin a real game for the other people FORCED to play with you?

I have suggested enforcing a hero level requirement, in prior threads, before a given player is allowed to play with other people.
09/13/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Catalyst
But the sad thing I feel like, is if I even ever worked my way up to diamond, from what I hear it seems like the matches are still the same rubbish....
Yep. Yesterday I played to prevent rank decay. 3/4 teammates were like silvers. We had a Malthael top laner on DS but our Guldan ("let me mage, I'm better because I main mage" he said it during drfat) wanted to top. He didn't defend top vs Zagara, he didn't ever go there to take the shrine.

Our Raynor ate 100% of the hooks (like he would have any more job than right click on something and watch his own position). We had 3 level disadvantage and my teammates forced fights all game long for no reason in spite of 12 retreat pings and died in stupid things, like chasing full health enemies at 5%, dying to towers, getting hooked and Guldan had 30k dmg when 2 opponents dealt 100k.

Well, I have 70% HL win rate in this season on that account, so I understand why I get teammates like these but how can the matchmaker find THIS bad players at dia/master? These players got placed to the rank where they are and they won't ever fall because the rank is full of similar baddies and they have chance to win against each other. Random silvers ruin every rank.
09/13/2018 08:18 PMPosted by YourFather
LoL and DOTA have way way waaaaaaaaay steeper learning curves.

And those games don't have any extensive tutorials for new players either.
Players pretty much learn as they go along.

The difference is those games attract players who yearn to improve and do better and want to compete. Hardcore players.
HotS tried to attract the casual players with its shared xp, no items, no gold, no farm game design.
Well... you know the problem with casual players? They don't give a damn.


And how has the catering to the esports LoL crowd been going? lol
I think getting good at a game is just like anything in life. Yes, you can read tutorials and training material, but only time, practice and carring about what you do will make you get better at it.

No matter how much training material you give someone, if they are just playing this game casually once in a while and don’t really care about it, they will stay the same.
09/14/2018 05:01 AMPosted by Sunken436
I think getting good at a game is just like anything in life. Yes, you can read tutorials and training material, but only time, practice and carring about what you do will make you get better at it.

No matter how much training material you give someone, if they are just playing this game casually once in a while and don’t really care about it, they will stay the same.
Yup, totally this. HOTS like every other game got guides or wikis. People just have towant to read them first and improve. Wiki or google in general got answer to most of the questions.

And btw, dont tell me you people never skipped tutorial in other games.
I posted this in a topic where it was about the game not being beginner friendly:

07/30/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Evildrake
I suggested sth like this once but I say it again. This game needs some sort of in-game wiki which holds information to:
- maps and their mechanics
- heroes and their strenghts and weaknesses
- team based game concept(any form of advices which allow better team communication and team play)
- The importance of objectives and team level
- Roles in general(What is a support doing, what are the tasks of warriors/tanks/bruiser etc)

New people don't want to look for external sources to get help at learning the game. It has to be fixed with the game itself, like with more detailed tutorials or as stated above, an in-game wiki.


Original Thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20754987504#post-1
Hots has some tips for players or semi-guides on the HGC Channel, too bad they aren't readable in game.
But again that is only one side of the issue.
Players who think they know everything, have never fault on anything and refusing to learn are another cause.
Also people skipping tutorial...
Do people not do reserch anymore in what they are getting into? I will reach a game and how its played before I do anything with said game. If you cant be bothered to study the basics of a game you should not be playing it.
What they should do is gather masters and grandmasters who stream and have them create a short video message to be played on each loading screen.

It fuzzes in like a starcraft screen and plays their message with helpful information.

a top player saying something like "its important to get exp from all lanes until level 10, and after level 10 its important to stay as a team so you dont get picked off. but make sure this doesnt distract you from the early objectives! they are still very powerful"

then it fuzzes out.
Completely agree with all of these points.

I think that part that is so discouraging is that I play to win, but it seems like the skill level disparity is all over the place.

If what I hear is accurate about the Dia/Mast level games too, then what that tells me is there's something wrong with the system and how people have been placed, but the MMR has settled too hard so that there are clearly people in ranks where they shouldn't be. Because this is a team based game there is much more opportunity to just sit at where you are because of the 50% winrate mentality.

Us as individual heroes don't make enough of a difference, when a proportion of baddies make you lose, they are also getting wins from the games where we truly did something special to turn the fight and bring them back up. So they stay stuck in this mmr roundabout when really they should be in bronze and silver.

TBH I don't know how this is fixed. LoL with gold and item scaling allow you to become OP and carry. HOTS just says "buckle up, we're all in this together!" even when some of the people buckled up with you decide that it's a good idea to fight down a level under an enemy keep when two of their teammates are dead....

Maybe if I just didn't want that shiny master boarder so much, and didn't long for more skilled teammates I wouldn't be here posting about the HOTS blues..
Funny you think Blizzard cares about their playerbase, all they care about now is money and how to get more. This is a sinking ship, no tutorial in the world will make this game good again.
09/13/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Catalyst
We are SORELY in need of a better training program for this game. or at least tutorials that will teach people how to properly play it.

Just left a game where the junkrat said "gg report Joh" (who I was). 2 of our 5 players had 7 deaths, another had 6 deaths, the junkrat had 3, I had 2.

Notes from the game:
- enemy team had a sylvanas on cursed hollow. Pushes bottom, no one goes bottom early game, I go down there and immediately get "joh you need to be mid"....Okay so I rotate mid, junkrat and our other team members dont go combat her, sylvanas takes a fort.

- Enemy team has 2/3 and is looking to get tribute for curse, they have level 11 we have barely hit 9. I say "please soak, dont teamfight, back" etc.. etc... they say "no it's tribute we must fight!" we go in because *follow the group or whatever*. we all die.

- consistently kael'thas is face checking bushes, getting way to close to the enemy team and just dying left right and centre

- stitches on two occasions did a 1v3 and died thinking he could take them.

- multiple occasions the team kept wanting to fight a talent tier down.

and the game ends and because I'm telling them what to do correctly and they don't like the shot calls, the junkrat ends the game with saying to report me.

I can't take it anymore fam. this was a gold rank 1 game. They should know better. They should be smarter.

Playing top gold in starcraft everyone at least knew how to protect themselves against cheese (zerg rush, proxies, etc). But in this game it seems like the education level from bronze to gold/platinum is exactly the same. There is no disparity between them.

The combination of lack of gameplay education, lack of PBMMR, lack of proper HL placements, and players that have clearly been put into the wrong classifications of HL rank has pretty much ruined competitive gameplay for me.

What do I do when I get teammates that are so bad that there is literally nothing I can do to help them?

I don't know if this is a vent thread, or a "how do you cope" thread, or "how do I get past this garbage and get to the good matches" thread.

But the sad thing I feel like, is if I even ever worked my way up to diamond, from what I hear it seems like the matches are still the same rubbish....

It's just really discouraging. :( I think I need to stop for a while...

Mobas and team games in general are perfect for playing the blame game. What ever happened its never your fault , you should always be MVP and you never have to improve anything about yourself since its always everyone else's fault or the comp or the map .

Thats simply the new gaming mentality of many players now.
09/14/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Sparks
Do people not do reserch anymore in what they are getting into?
Only the good players who look up and practice to get better.
There's no rewards as you go up in divisions only when you go up a league. Have rewards as you go up in divisions then HL will probably be more competitive in each league.
this is what's wrong with blizzard games but the devs (here and OW) are to daft to understand this...
Blizzard needs to start separating like minded and like skilled players and force them to play in the same game... having a team with one really good player and 2 duds vs a 5 man of average skill is not fun.

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