[PTR] GoT Feedback

General Discussion
Hi, after playing some matches on the reworked GoT, here some feedback.

Contra:

  • Even though the terrors have relatively low health, the map is very snowbally, every game i did ended with massive level disparity and one sides structures virtually unscathed.
  • In difference to the fights over the tributes the fights over the seeds do not feel very interesting.
  • Three lane pushes simply don´t fit the map and feel cheap and generic compared to the Garden Terror vehicle.
  • The day/night cycle was awesome.
  • There actually need to be more maps that encoure small skirmishes with less than five , 5-man-deathballing is already the entire late-game.
  • The new map reduces possibilities in decision making, as all three lanes are getting pushed anyways.


Pro:

  • That rain effect is really nice and atmospheric


In conclusion, the new map is now boring and snowbally, just as everyone predicted beforehand.
What a shocking surprise...
Maybe they could combine a bit of Battlefield of Eternity into it? For example only 2 terrors are spawned, which go down the two lanes with most structures. This reduces the number of fronts being pushed from 3 to 2 giving the defending team more of a break.
Eh. If you actually see your opponent’s after the starting mid fight then it’s an improvement. How many GoT games consisted of mid fight into soak, first night cycle we clear bot weeds while they clear top, spawn terrors, ours goes south, theirs goes north, Who gets to the end first wins gg.

MOBAs shouldn’t feel like pve races. And you definitely shouldn’t get to the end of a game and see the mvp go to a hero you didn’t even remember was on the map because you never saw them after the first bit.

I understand wanting to something to shake up the “5 man murderball” but a map that was prone to becoming pure pve was bound to need addressing.
I have played PTR Garden Terror too and I agree with everything you said. Specially about the map being more snowbally and how encouraing skirmishes over 5v5 teamfights every single objective is way more interesting.

It's like they don't want to force players to make decisions. Before each team had to decide if split or not, engage or not. The team with level disadvantage could obtain some seeds and maybe try to push and make a comeback. Now it's just the same "every x minutes you have to go and fight over x spot or you are screwed". In that kind of map, the only way to make a comeback if your team is 2 or 3 levels below, is the enemy making a huge misplay. But in most games the winner is decided within the first 10 minutes.

Old Garden Terror was more complex but also way more interesting and compelling.
How good, that Blizz wants 5v5 battles only and they reworks maps to push us to fight like this.
This map was good that you hadn't to fight like this - small battles over the map 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 end etc.
You could sometimes ignore the objective as an enemy team, and nobody cares about. This map was only, when each team could ignore objective (night of terror) and then wait for the next if no team collect enough resources.

:(
Devs forgot Moba is genre not only about team fights.
The problem of this map is seeds that could add up and exceed 100.
My suggestion is to leave the old version of the map with 1 difference:
Each team will always be given the opportunity to control a nightmare. Nightmare strength depends on the amount of collected seeds. What do you think?
09/18/2018 04:43 AMPosted by Mezjasz
Each team will always be given the opportunity to control a nightmare. Nightmare strength depends on the amount of collected seeds. What do you think?


I had a similar idea, so i like it. I would say instead of HP/damage it should scale on cooldowns and durations; the terror´s power mostly comes from it´s abilities.
I haven't played the new GoT yet. From the video it looks like all three lanes are pushed by one team's objective win, which is a large part why it is snowbally. I think that they should give it the Braxis Holdout treatment to prevent the 5-man-snowball-a-lane.

I feel one lane always needs to be pushed by the losing team's Terror. This would help prevent a full 5-man push on a lane, as it incentives 1 of them to split and defend that lane.

This might also be a good treatment for Alterac Pass as well.

Thoughts?
The last time I posted a thread what I felt was wrong with the rework, the thread was deleted about 30 minutes after posting it. Hope this one stays up.
Garden of Terror feedback/summary/tl;dr:

It sucks.

I feel one lane always needs to be pushed by the losing team's Terror. This would help prevent a full 5-man push on a lane, as it incentives 1 of them to split and defend that lane.

Thoughts?

In theory it sounds good, but the problem is that its 2 vs 1 in terror count, the defenders still have 2 terrors to take care of, while the other team has 1. Its not going to help the losing team enough as they often cannot push with their terror.
The zerg rush has the same issue, but there its not a problem as its just a 2 lane map, and the losing wave can still do a lot of damage which is going to help the next wave. With a 3 lane map you dont have that guarantee as you dont know which next lane it would be that it would push.
This could be made static, but if they do that, why not make it just spawn 1 terror using that static way for the team that won the terror?

Its better to focus the push towards 1 or 2 areas at most, it allows the team that lost the gather phase to make a comeback during defending.

The spiders have the advantage that the lanes are all close together which makes you capable to dispose of them better, and thats why 3 arent a problem there. And when cursed, you only face minions which only require 1 hero to easily dispose of anyway. And in both cases you gain an advantage if you pushed with your minions as they still save time in both cases.

I think it would be better if they took the infernal shrines approach where its preset in which lane the terror will spawn. Which could be just a static setting of 1st terror is always middle, and just rotates lanes (for blue upward, for red downward).

But im still going to miss the double terror situation, which if you are on the losing side, can be an interesting counter mechanic.

Maybe they should force a day and night schedule again, during each night 4 seeds spawn which they have to fight for in the new way.
After the night, the team which has more than 3 seeds spawns a terror, which if it was equal the first round, is very likely to trigger on the next round (which then very likely becomes a 3/5 or 4/4).
The first terrors would be at the same lane then, but later terrors would then be on the outer lanes.

For alterac i think the push strength should be based on the capture progression, the closer the gap, the less powerfull the buffs (if its a 1sec gap, the supporting units dont provide any buffs except a little extra damage and damage soaking capabilities). This means that a close battle isnt going to instantly cause a snowball effect.
I watched someone play it on twitch and the 3 plants look like reskinned bosses with their generic aoe but with the seed to lock structures. So unique and compelling...

Old garden actually felt like a spooky forest at night trying to hunt seeds. The enemy team could come out of nowhere to ambush you or steal your seeds. You wonder if they are on the other jungle or prowling in yours. There was great tension and atmosphere.
What about this:
Every seed spawns a Terror. So if the enemy team gets the 3 seeds, but my team also have 2, we will have 2 Terrors and the enemy 3 Terrors. This would make the map feel not so snowbally
Extra for this mechanic: every night 5 Seeds spawn at the same time on the map ( the 5th seed would be on one of the middle spawns). You only need to collect 3 seeds still.

I know that these changes will don't bring the old GoT back, but I think these could bring some original mechanics to the map. Will you split your team to get as soon as possible the seeds on your side, or will you go as 5 for the "enemy's" seeds?
Can we just let 3 garden terrors be piloted and call it a day?
GoT should have been changed up a little, but not a huge rework like this. I think they should have kept the controllable vehicle but made it so that only one team can get a terror at a time. Maybe make it so seeds are collectible by killing mobs or getting merc camps and you need 100 to spawn a terror. However, a team can only spawn a terror during the night phase, and the spawn location is in the center of the map, not in your team's base.
Concerning the night/day cycle i understand i agree that it was a nice touch from the map but didn't some people have issues with seeing things/ performance issues during night times?
I could see why it got scrapped.
And before people complain about eye/perf issues impeding things i'll say it from the get go: "stealth".
The original Garden Terror was what made this map unique. The main complaint was the seed collection. It became more of a PvE (similar to BHB).

What should have been done IMHO -

1 - Keep the Terror
2 - Change the seed collection. Have 3 seeds spawn per cycle. First team to collect three seeds gets a terror. However, after the third seed is collected, the remaining seeds for that cycle de-spawns. The first cycle will encourage a team fight for the final seed. The second cycle one team will be ahead in seeds 2-1. This encourages more skirmishes in seed collection. The team that wins the second cycle gets a terror. Now, the third cycle the team that got the terror should be ahead in level, but behind in seeds. This gives the lower level team an advantage to collect the seeds.

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