Mephisto: Consume Souls

General Discussion
Unfortunately, the rest of my response is being blocked by the spam filter, so I'll take this time to respond to your new post while I wait for it to stop having conniptions.
09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
That's why I said you avoided straight answers. You completely ignored my question and instead started with this dumb "well, I guess you just stand still in aoes and soak up all the dmg". I don't know why and how is that related to this topic?
Ah, I see, the ol' Gish Gallop. You're just throwing out as many weak arguments as you can, and then getting upset when I don't take the time or effort to dignify each and every one of them with a rebuttal.

This just confirms that you really don't care about the facts, only throwing as much of a smokescreen into the air as possible to obscure reality.

09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
Our Malthael debate has no place here, but I showed high lvl play (a video), which shows how Malthael just beats Alarak.
If it has no place here, I'd recommend not alluding to it then.

Also, I already listed off what was wrong with that video in that same thread, but I'm guessing you brushed it off like most other facts you don't want to hear.

09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
Maybe you should do it as well.
"no u"

09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
I didn't talk about winrates there. I talked about actual gameplays.
Okay, yeah, you just intentionally ignored the point. That was really, painfully obvious dude.

09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
I didn't see a single miss/dodge on Salvo yet your "counter" is: just get behind Fenix (but saying just interrupt Mephisto is impossbile while you can just walk behind Fenix).
Do you not understand what "range" is? Salvo has a maximum range enemies must be within to hit. Consume Souls can be cast from anywhere on the map and still hit you. It is far easier to close the gap between Fenix casting Salvo and Mephisto casting Consume Souls. Again, I am speaking from experience.

Additionally, because the time window for Consume Souls is basically the entire teamfight and about 10 seconds afterwards, getting interrupted mid-cast isn't something that hurts Mephisto all that much. Just try again in 10 seconds, you've got plenty of time.

And Thrall, and Stitches, and Murky, and Fenix himself. Should I search for more?
Sure, let me know if you come back with any more besides Murky that can consistently slow enemies long or often enough for Salvo's bonus damage to count on it.

09/13/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Karabars
And count again your "10 counters".
Cool, you found 2 more, Farseer's Blessing and Bio-Kill Switch. So that's 12 total.

I see you listed several of the Storm Shield variants separately to inflate those numbers. Nice try though.
Ah, I see, the ol' Gish Gallop. You're just throwing out as many weak arguments as you can, and then getting upset when I don't take the time or effort to dignify each and every one of them with a rebuttal.
It's imo and important point because if let's say, you think Shield Wall isn't a counter to Blizzard (or any aoe), because it only saves one and not all the ppl it hits, than yeah, you have a weird point against Mephisto's ult. But if it counts as a counter, then I don't see why you say those abilities don't matter against Consume Souls.
This just confirms that you really don't care about the facts, only throwing as much of a smokescreen into the air as possible to obscure reality.
I mean... my portrait is Medivh, I'm a magician /s
"no u"
For a long time I kinda respected you but your recent comments and your overall style just made me question myself on this.
Okay, yeah, you just intentionally ignored the point. That was really, painfully obvious dude.
If you say in your opinion nothing matters what happens in HGC (and by that I mean plays, strategies and the usage of Heroes), then I think you just don't like that your personal experiences don't match with those players' who truly know this game, unlike us.
Do you not understand what "range" is? Salvo has a maximum range enemies must be within to hit. Consume Souls can be cast from anywhere on the map and still hit you. It is far easier to close the gap between Fenix casting Salvo and Mephisto casting Consume Souls. Again, I am speaking from experience.
Yea, I don't know what range means /s
Salvo and a lot of other abilities have a pretty long range and in a teamfight, it actually doesn't matter that Mephisto's ult is global because everyone is near and the only Heroes who can get far away from a fight are Tracer and Genji and let's be honest here, are we really defending them? Suddenly all the "they just got away at low hp without counter" threads just gone? (And Genji still can just Deflect or maybe even X-strike in rare cases. And tracer has the option to maybe Recall.)
Additionally, because the time window for Consume Souls is basically the entire teamfight and about 10 seconds afterwards, getting interrupted mid-cast isn't something that hurts Mephisto all that much. Just try again in 10 seconds, you've got plenty of time.
The later he uses it the higher chance to your team to finish the teamfight before it has a use and the earlier he uses the more dmg he's missing because we both know that his dps is much higher without his ult.
And yes, 10 second in HotS is basically an eternity.
Sure, let me know if you come back with any more besides Murky that can consistently slow enemies long or often enough for Salvo's bonus damage to count on it.
You don't need "consistent" slows for combos.
09/13/2018 01:28 PMPosted by Maximus
I see you listed several of the Storm Shield variants separately to inflate those numbers. Nice try though.
If you would take to time to click on the post you could see that I made that comment before your comments in a different thread (if it wasn't weirdly suspicious enough that you didn't see that here) and listed everything separately because of the abilities' names. Not to "infalte numbers". But if we're talking about numbers, why count every Storm Shield talent and similar ones as 1 if we're talking about how easy it is to get a team who can counter it and how many Heores have counters to it?
Side note: I forgot to list Diablo's Apocalypse there. I don't know if you saw it in my thread, but I wrote down in a comment that I did test it in Trymode and you don't need to be a computer to be able to press R as Diablo in time.
Wow this post has gotten pretty crazy.

Consume souls has counters as much as other ults. A lot of it is just adjusting your play style in the given match, like you would with ETCs mosh pit- don’t clump up and give opportunity to use it effectively.

Quickmatch is the most popular mode of play but statistics from it is completely random and unreliable because of team comp and ranging skill of the players put together. So getting statistics from HCG and high rank hero leagues are a better indication on how well a hero is preforming.

Watching Grubby the other day he made a good point on a map, the one where you have to take control of the camp to get the lanes pushing(can’t remember the name)- in quickmatch everyone would have died 5 times already trying to take control- in higher rank games they know its too difficult to get it so they poke and rotate through lanes getting xp till the enemy makes a mistake.

It’s a kill fest in quickmatch, it’s uncordinated chaos. Everyone goes ham. Players will get low diving in, out of position try to get away then CS goes off- dead.

Consumes souls is a strong heroic but if you don’t play into it it’s usless
09/12/2018 11:53 PMPosted by StrikerJolt
09/12/2018 05:15 PMPosted by U2v85
That talent should remove it or change it completely, that is, press R after a team fight and kill an entire team with just the press of a key.
Is that a good balance?

In addition, Mephisto to be a Hero of damage at a distance has more life than the average and his electric nova causes a massive area damage and his abilities have a very short cooldown for his trait.


People have been dealing with the same ability in League for years. It's called get a healer.


Oh, you mean the 200 second cooldown, goes on full CD if interrupted, does not reveal or get a second cast if it kills someone ability in League?

Even baseline Consume Souls is amazing, with a decent chunk of damage and tons of utility (reveal + unavoidable 5-man slow). The level 20 upgrade is just overkill.

Durance sucking a big one does play a part in CS being overbearing tho. CS should be toned down and Entangling R... err, I mean Durance, should be buffed.
09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
For a long time I kinda respected you but your recent comments and your overall style just made me question myself on this.
I'm sorry to hear that, though my overall long-winded writing style and rather abrasive and critical attitude hasn't changed all that much. I suspect your opinion has changed mainly because you're the focus of it right now.

09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
If you say in your opinion nothing matters what happens in HGC (and by that I mean plays, strategies and the usage of Heroes), then I think you just don't like that your personal experiences don't match with those players' who truly know this game, unlike us.
I've been over the specifics of why the pro-scene is completely different from the rest of the game before, though I don't know if you were in any of those threads.

Basically, pros are pros and not just your average Diamond/Masters semi-casual players for one major reason, and that is response time. They are so much faster than the average player, being able to react in about 1/3 of the time it takes for the majority of players to react to the same stimulus.

See, they don't necessarily understand the game any better than the majority of the players in Diamond and Masters, they're just so frickin fast. They've trained their fast twitch muscles to be faster and their brains to connect the dots faster than normal, increasing their reaction speeds 3 to 4 fold. This takes literally tens of thousands of hours of regular practice to do, which is utterly unfeasible for 99% of the community. People like you and I, who simply don't have the time, patience, physical ability, etc. required for that training will simply never reach that level. And of that 1% left over, it's a competition for who can be in the top 0.1% to become pros.

This is why you can't balance a game like HotS for both Esports and casual play. It is impossible to do without setting up different stat values for different heroes.

This is also why HGC statistics are completely unreliable for judging the overall viability of heroes. The examples I've listed before, Tassadar in this thread, along with several others in another thread, show exactly this trend. Tassadar's 75% winrate in HGC indicates he needs some severe nerfs, while his ~40% winrate in the rest of the game indicates he needs some heavy buffs. HGC is just too inconsistent with the rest of the game to be a reliable metric for balance or the "right way to play."

09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
it actually doesn't matter that Mephisto's ult is global because everyone is near and the only Heroes who can get far away from a fight are Tracer and Genji and let's be honest here, are we really defending them? Suddenly all the "they just got away at low hp without counter" threads just gone?
You do realize that heroes like Zul'jin, KT, Arthas, Xul, etc. don't have movement abilities but can still walk away from teamfights, right? They aren't locked in a battle to the death whenever they engage, they can walk away at any time so long as they aren't CCed or bodyblocked. This isn't limited to affecting hyper-mobility heroes.

I've seen every one of those heroes killed by Consume Souls after escaping from teamfights. They were far enough away that nothing short of Illidan's Hunt would have been able to kill them before this last patch, but Mephisto swooped in (or more accurately stood still) and finished them off, even with them behind towers that would have killed Illidan if he'd Hunted them.

This is the biggest problem with it. It is completely safe and very reliable. If you see a low health target escaping a team fight, you can safely finish them off from any distance away 90% of the time.

I don't have a problem with the damage itself, that on its own is fair and I think that should be left alone. I take issue with how that damage is applied, which is why I want its range limited to a fixed amount or only heroes within vision range.

09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
And yes, 10 second in HotS is basically an eternity.
It certainly is for most heroes. However, Consume Souls' versatility and Mephisto's durability (he's easily the most resilient mage in the game right now) greatly mitigates that delay. Mephisto can use Consume Souls at the beginning, middle, or end of a teamfight and still get a lot of value out of it, unlike abilities like Pyroblast (used best at the end of fights) or Ring of Frost (used best in the middle of fights).

And besides, as we've already been over, interrupting the channel is no easy task.

09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
You don't need "consistent" slows for combos.
Hmm, yes, maybe a better word would have been "reliable," as consistency tends to be a part of reliability, but not the only one.

Either way, I'm sure you knew what I meant anyway, and are intentionally strawmanning me again.

09/13/2018 02:21 PMPosted by Karabars
I forgot to list Diablo's Apocalypse there. I don't know if you saw it in my thread, but I wrote down in a comment that I did test it in Trymode and you don't need to be a computer to be able to press R as Diablo in time.
To be honest, I find this hard to believe.

The cast time for Apocalypse is 0.2 seconds, and the eruption delay is 1.75 seconds. Factoring in the ~0.06 seconds of lag between pressing a button (your side) and the ability being cast (HotS server's side), you've got about 0.4-0.5 seconds to react if you want to interrupt Consume Souls. Again, I don't see that happening outside of dumb luck or being a computer, even in an ideal situation.

This is just too implausible for me to believe. Are you sure you didn't just stun him after Consume Souls already went out? Diablo has so much health you might not even notice the damage without paying close attention (I'm speaking from experience against abilities like Salvo). That's my bet as to what happened.
I'm sorry to hear that, though my overall long-winded writing style and rather abrasive and critical attitude hasn't changed all that much. I suspect your opinion has changed mainly because you're the focus of it right now.
You assume a lot of things. Like: I don't dodge aoes; I change my mind because it hurt me; I inflate numbers. But you were never right in these. Maybe you shouldn't guess that much and ask instead.
I don't remember you outside of our own arguments, so I was always the suspect of your "critical attitude" but recently it sounds more like dumb arrogance. "If you disagree with me that's must be because you're bad".
This is also why HGC statistics are completely unreliable for judging the overall viability of heroes.
Imo QM (the one you're using for your arguments) is a lot more unrealiable source than HGC. Based on QM (hotslogs), Murky, Cho'Gall, Lili, Varian, Butcher and Artanis are almost as strong/problematic as Mephisto. But I doubt you have the same opinion about them. HGC (mostly because what you said that pros are really quick and good at micro-macro) is also a good source to see how a Hero can perform. Not by statistics (wr/popularity) but by actions. It shows the potential of Heroes. And we should always balance around potential, because ppl can improve. At low lvls, there's a lot of room for improvements so ppl can use "weak" Heroes and destroy "op" Heroes because they both relatively bad with those Heroes. But it would destroy the high lvl if they would lose a lot because a few Heroes are overperforming and you are defeated because of numbers because you can't improve further, you reached a certain limit.
Tassadar in this thread, along with several others in another thread, show exactly this trend. Tassadar's 75% winrate in HGC indicates he needs some severe nerfs, while his ~40% winrate in the rest of the game indicates he needs some heavy buffs.
https://masterleague.net/hero/tassadar/?p=51
I don't know what source you used for that, but I was unable to find his 75% wr. What I found is around 49-55% wr with low popularity, so he's niche but good in his niche. So his overall powerlvl is good (that's also my personal experience from a lot of games). It's another topic if his kit is good or his build variaty is healthy.
You do realize that heroes like Zul'jin, KT, Arthas, Xul, etc. don't have movement abilities but can still walk away from teamfights, right? They aren't locked in a battle to the death whenever they engage, they can walk away at any time so long as they aren't CCed or bodyblocked. This isn't limited to affecting hyper-mobility heroes.
(Not nitpicking just funfact: Arthas has mobility at lvl 20.)
I don't know what fights you guys have, but my teamfights are usually this: we kill almost everybody, they can't just walk away or we have 1-2 kills and the enemy disengage. But against a Mephisto, it's good to not just hide in a bush but stay close to your Support.
I've seen every one of those heroes killed by Consume Souls after escaping from teamfights. They were far enough away that nothing short of Illidan's Hunt would have been able to kill them before this last patch, but Mephisto swooped in (or more accurately stood still) and finished them off, even with them behind towers that would have killed Illidan if he'd Hunted them.
And Heroes without mobility had time to just walk screens away from Mephisto yet they didn't used that time to HS. Either they were relatively close or misused their time.
This is the biggest problem with it. It is completely safe and very reliable. If you see a low health target escaping a team fight, you can safely finish them off from any distance away 90% of the time.
If you see low health targets, you probably cast CS immieditely so yet again, I don't see how they would have time to get out of range if CS wouldn't be global. Also, I wouldn't consider a 2 minutes Heroic reliable. As Mephisto or against Mephisto, I saw a lot of times that you want to use CS to finish someone off, but it's off cd. Best counter is to force teamfights while his ult is down.
I don't have a problem with the damage itself, that on its own is fair and I think that should be left alone. I take issue with how that damage is applied, which is why I want its range limited to a fixed amount or only heroes within vision range.
I rather see dmg nerfs if ppl can't counter it with the many options they have, because for me, the global aspect is its fantasy. But if the dmg will every be gutted, I want cd reduction in return.
It certainly is for most heroes. However, Consume Souls' versatility and Mephisto's durability (he's easily the most resilient mage in the game right now) greatly mitigates that delay. Mephisto can use Consume Souls at the beginning, middle, or end of a teamfight and still get a lot of value out of it, unlike abilities like Pyroblast (used best at the end of fights) or Ring of Frost (used best in the middle of fights).

And besides, as we've already been over, interrupting the channel is no easy task.
Again, I used Mephisto's ult a lot of times in a lot of different situations. Using it early is just a reveal (good, but the dmg you dealt feels meaningless). Using it middle of a fight is kinda meh, you lose dps and it doesn't feel strong. Using it lategame is the real strength and even then it's no guarantee for a kill.
As my personal experience, I was interrupted as Meph multiple times and my team interrupted the enemy Meph multiple times as well. It's not that hard actually, at least it doesn't seem that way to me.
And I'm not against the idea to nerf his durability. I suggested nerfs for his shield talent (so it's not a must pick and we don't nerf his other builds) and his 12% hp dmg talent. It should be 8-10% at max.
Hmm, yes, maybe a better word would have been "reliable," as consistency tends to be a part of reliability, but not the only one.

Either way, I'm sure you knew what I meant anyway, and are intentionally strawmanning me again.
I'm not strawmaning. Sitches, Thrall, Murky, Deckard, Blaze (the lates two are yet unlisted additions) can reliable slow for Fenix's ult. Stitches has a slowing ult and a slowing aoe on W, Thrall's Earthquake, Murky's March and his Slime, Deckard's Cube (Sapphire is the way to go talent), Blaze's Oil. It's childplay to get ppl slowed for Fenix's ult.
09/13/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Maximus
To be honest, I find this hard to believe.
Okay, but it doesn't matter what you believe. I even have proof.
09/13/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Maximus
This is just too implausible for me to believe. Are you sure you didn't just stun him after Consume Souls already went out? Diablo has so much health you might not even notice the damage without paying close attention (I'm speaking from experience against abilities like Salvo). That's my bet as to what happened.
I tested it at max hp and even made a screenshot before the stun expired. So yeah, I'm 100% sure.
09/12/2018 05:48 PMPosted by TimeSpike
Mephisto is fine, he is the 1st balanced hero ever released. People just get mad when they die by his ult and cry about it. The ult has many counters and a long cast time for the enemy to react and you need a kill for the reset... almost any healer can prevent a kill.


A hero who was truly balanced on release? Cassia. Her Valkyrie ult was slightly underperforming but other than that, she had good winrates, was good at what she was meant to do, all that with plenty of meaningful counterplay. I wish we got more heroes like her.
CS is a perfectly fine heroic; it deals relatively low damage, the slow is nothing special either, has a 120 sec CD, and is probably the most telegraphed ability in the whole game.
There are plenty of counters for it, which also includes every heal and shield in the game (especially Tyrande's Shadowstalk, also know as The Anti-CS Heroic).
You can also pull out on time, btw, making Mephisto pretty much waste his heroic in case he uses it.
All in all, no matter how much people cry about it and focus only on its pros, that heroic factually has cons and can't be used as a 'press R to win' ability (honestly, people who say that for CS lose any credibility).
I WOULD revert the nerf Tyra's Justice for All got, though (honestly, wtf was with that nerf).

Its level 20 talent upgrade, on the other hand, is silly.
Not only is its usefulness limited to be only a finisher, but also is way too snowbally of a upgrade.
Instead, it should completely get reworked into something which allows Mephisto players to be creative and us CS in more ways than one.
For example, it could make CS now deal AoE damage, allowing for some wombos, or the recast on kill could be replaced with a CDR on hero dying while slowed by CS, or have it reduce the enemy armor while they are slowed, or mini-stun them for 0.25 sec when they get hit, or reduce their healing received by 100% while they are slowed down, or any combination of those (again, these are just some examples).

Durance of Hate, on the other hand, simply sucks, period.
And I'm not talking about its power only, but the fact that its dull to no end too (it is almost literally Malf's E turned into a skill-show, basically making it worse since the zoning potential is gone... yay).
Instead, I suggest that Durance of Hate gets reworked into something similar to ultimate DotA 2's Winter Wyvern has (Winter's Curse), basically cursing an enemy so all its allies will get tauned and attack them (that's the general concept, no need to copy/paste it from DotA 2 - for example, WC roots the targeted enemy while I'd allow them to move).

Besides that, I think Mephisto is mostly fine (nothing few small number tweaks here and there won't fix anyway).
As I've said before, the only issue with Consume Souls is the slow. Because it's a global reveal + damage, it doesn't need a slow on top of that. Remove the slow (and probably tweak some of his talents for better diversity) and we'll be good.
its free damage...... put a % of health not overall damage.....
I think Consume Souls could use a nerf. I would reduce the slow and nerf the damage on the Level 20 talent, and then see how that plays out before future changes.

That being said, I think Skull Missile and his other ult (that I have only used twice) need buffs.

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