Tyrande in WoW becoming a "Night Warrior"

General Discussion
09/23/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Xenterex
09/23/2018 05:53 PMPosted by Bloodrush
but don't bat an eye about Stukov not playing at all like he should be.


minus that people do care that stukov doesn't 'play' like 'he should' and there were all sorts of threads about it back to when the first infested egg was found on what, tomb of the spider queen or dragon shire?, wayback when to be the first nod of stukov and the eventual outrage that seemed to 'fixate' his kit to regulating him to being a 'healer' despite him only having a regen aura.

Here's the thing: if support heroes were cast only as heroes that were 'known for healing' the role would be smaller and pretty much capped out. Tyrande is a powerful force that tends to get stuff done by channeling starfall to destroy everything around her, much the same malfurion has shown great power to destroy, uther had decimated hordes of orcs personally, whitemane, as an inquisitor would torture 'infected' people and fight off armies of the endless dead then ever 'healing' (the one key bit of difference being the rez) auriel fought in wars and slaughtered armies of demons for centuries, stukov, rehgar, kharazim also warriors more defined by their call to action than in standing back to mend wounds and comfort the downtrodden.

Heck, arguably the most violent character available to hots, brightwing, is a 'healbot'.

Damage is easy and characters that do it are a dime a dozen. Coming up with more creative outlets to have characters contribute to the team-play is significantly more demanding, esp in the big picture scheme of creating kits that also allow for more heroes to eventually come to the hero pool as one of the aspects that sets hots apart from similar games is that it does have full-fledged healers in the roster.

Given that tyrande is essentially the epitome of archer, hunter, priestess, sentinel, beast master and racial leader, there is just about no ends to what her kit could be and essentially nullify the potential for just about any other nelf, archer or paladin to be in the nexus.

The basis of what makes tyrande work as a warrior, as a leader, is her willingness to take action to attack and protect what she loves. That aspect is reflected in her kit for hots as being a 'healer' in that she can attack and kill and protect because the means to be successful with her is in being active in battle, setting marks, contributing to kills and making calls.


at least those characters have something in their kit that fit into their actually theme though. Not a single one of Stukov's ability actually fits his character. edit: even the heal that he has in hots isn't similiar at all to the ability he had in starcraft
09/23/2018 06:52 PMPosted by Xenterex
09/23/2018 05:53 PMPosted by Bloodrush
but don't bat an eye about Stukov not playing at all like he should be.


minus that people do care that stukov doesn't 'play' like 'he should' and there were all sorts of threads about it back to when the first infested egg was found on what, tomb of the spider queen or dragon shire?, wayback when to be the first nod of stukov and the eventual outrage that seemed to 'fixate' his kit to regulating him to being a 'healer' despite him only having a regen aura.

Here's the thing: if support heroes were cast only as heroes that were 'known for healing' the role would be smaller and pretty much capped out. Tyrande is a powerful force that tends to get stuff done by channeling starfall to destroy everything around her, much the same malfurion has shown great power to destroy, uther had decimated hordes of orcs personally, whitemane, as an inquisitor would torture 'infected' people and fight off armies of the endless dead then ever 'healing' (the one key bit of difference being the rez) auriel fought in wars and slaughtered armies of demons for centuries, stukov, rehgar, kharazim also warriors more defined by their call to action than in standing back to mend wounds and comfort the downtrodden.

Heck, arguably the most violent character available to hots, brightwing, is a 'healbot'.

Damage is easy and characters that do it are a dime a dozen. Coming up with more creative outlets to have characters contribute to the team-play is significantly more demanding, esp in the big picture scheme of creating kits that also allow for more heroes to eventually come to the hero pool as one of the aspects that sets hots apart from similar games is that it does have full-fledged healers in the roster.

Given that tyrande is essentially the epitome of archer, hunter, priestess, sentinel, beast master and racial leader, there is just about no ends to what her kit could be and essentially nullify the potential for just about any other nelf, archer or paladin to be in the nexus.

The basis of what makes tyrande work as a warrior, as a leader, is her willingness to take action to attack and protect what she loves. That aspect is reflected in her kit for hots as being a 'healer' in that she can attack and kill and protect because the means to be successful with her is in being active in battle, setting marks, contributing to kills and making calls.


Agreed on everything except the part where Blizzard nerfed all her damage.
I said it before, she can heal and she is amazing at it according to lore. Elune has granted her the ability to heal the way no other priestess can.
But removing her damage side was a huge mistake by Blizzard in my opinion.
09/23/2018 01:13 AMPosted by armando
Would it be too hard if they did something like with kharazim at lvl 1 with tyrande so you can choose dps or heal?

It doesnt seem too difficult just let the heal build have 2 charges of heal like now and with dps 1 charge.

As someone who only used her as a carry with a 70%+ winrate I just dont ever see me playing her now. Randomly changing a heroes identity isnt healthy for the game.
I'd love a healer on my team that only heals for 200-400 with one charge. That sounds like a great idea.
09/23/2018 08:10 PMPosted by Bloodrush
at least those characters have something in their kit that fit into their actually theme though.


Here's a cool trick: highlight the part of a part to which you are replying, and then click on the spiffy ["] that appears so you only quote the part to which you are replying. This saves on forum space so people don't have to keep scrolling past long blocks of text to see what you have to say. Example:

09/23/2018 08:10 PMPosted by Bloodrush
Not a single one of Stukov's ability actually fits his character.


So he doesn't have a offensive ability that deals damage from range and offer the opportunity for enemies take more damage as a consequence?
Or that he doesn't have an ability to facilitate ally hp recovery by being near them?

Oh, and evidently being able to push and zone out and trap enemies has no practical application to a tactical solider and obviously, his emphasis on research in his career would best be represented by... not coming up with anything new and just sticking to tried and true stuff.

Your ideas for 'proper' stukov be very different than what zagara would do, right? Or are you going to throw back to his npc appearances and suggest he's supposed to have ghost-like abilities instead?
His heal ability is very different from the one he actually possesses. His damaging abilities are also very different from the ones he actually posssess especially lurking arm. Both of his ult's do the exact same thing with the only difference being one is a single target and the other is an aoe. The single target ult itself is a complete reference to anime and has no ties to stukov as a character whatsoever.

Stukov should have been a support specialist hybrid. having a heal ability while being able to infest both friendly and enemy buildings. His first ult could have been kept as a cute little anime reference but the second ult should have been the infected aleksander.
After a long think about it, the people talking about Stukov are completely wrong.

He is very much, 100% true to lore.

He isnt brainlessly "healing" per se. He is "infecting" you with the zerg supervirus. This is how your health goes up. The dev team can't show you sprouting claws and wings for several reasons, but that's how it would look lore-wise.

"Share my power, and my pain..." He's infesting you, it just doesn't show you mutating.

Imagine the fury if a Stukov came along and made Mekagoo's dva look like Zagara every 10 seconds? People would complain about you changing their hero's appearance just by healing them.
09/23/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Gonchin
After a long think about it, the people talking about Stukov are completely wrong.

He is very much, 100% true to lore.

He isnt brainlessly "healing" per se. He is "infecting" you with the zerg supervirus. This is how your health goes up. The dev team can't show you sprouting claws and wings for several reasons, but that's how it would look lore-wise.

"Share my power, and my pain..." He's infesting you, it just doesn't show you mutating.

Imagine the fury if a Stukov came along and made Mekagoo's dva look like Zagara every 10 seconds? People would complain about you changing their hero's appearance just by healing them.


the way he heals is not accurate to his character at all. He's never had access to some "virus". The only healing he had in star craft 2 was a passive healing aoe. Outside of healing the rest of his kit makes literally zero sense especially his ults. literally nothing about him is accurate to his lore at all. The healing can be forgiven as he had it in starcraft but the rest of his kit is entirely made up with little regard to his character.

you can tell by his abilites and his ult that they completely focused everything around his arm rather than his infested style.
09/24/2018 06:47 AMPosted by Bloodrush
09/23/2018 10:09 PMPosted by Gonchin
After a long think about it, the people talking about Stukov are completely wrong.

He is very much, 100% true to lore.

He isnt brainlessly "healing" per se. He is "infecting" you with the zerg supervirus. This is how your health goes up. The dev team can't show you sprouting claws and wings for several reasons, but that's how it would look lore-wise.

"Share my power, and my pain..." He's infesting you, it just doesn't show you mutating.

Imagine the fury if a Stukov came along and made Mekagoo's dva look like Zagara every 10 seconds? People would complain about you changing their hero's appearance just by healing them.


the way he heals is not accurate to his character at all. He's never had access to some "virus". The only healing he had in star craft 2 was a passive healing aoe. Outside of healing the rest of his kit makes literally zero sense especially his ults.


You are asking for his "infestation" mechanic. He turns his entire team into infested terrans.

If you watched a film about a Stukov match, his team would look progressively more zerg-y. Carapace comes out and seals wounds. Tentacles sprout out of amputated limbs, that sort of thing. He is "healing" by merging your body with the zerg strains. Think of the Dehaka trait - that's basically what his Q gives you.

The virus he puts on the enemies infests them in a negative way. It gives them extra limbs that slow down their movement. It puts an extra five knees on one leg, so they have trouble walking.
09/23/2018 04:36 AMPosted by Darmonic
09/23/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Xenterex
...

What part of the changes were 'random'?

...

at what point in WoW did tyrande do... well, anything? The bit of your call here is from what, datamining that showcases a new model, getting a melee weapon, and her sclera are turning black after a ritual and a sequence of missions to facilitate change rather than this being a throwback to what she had ever been.

HoTs draws compositions from what they had to work from at the time, and then make creative departures of their own — such as tyrande's outfit in HoTS being unique.

But really, I'd wait to see if this 'night warrior' bit is going to amount to anything more than just facilitating in new character cosmetics before Wow regulates tyrande to sidelining behind malfurion once again.


Tassadar kit makes zero sense other than his Archon ultimate.

Tyrande in Warcraft 3 and WoW was never a healer despite being a "priestess".

Garrosh kit is hot mess.

Mephisto. Enough said.

Whitemane having "Paladin" abilities and no "arise, champion" ability... her most notorious line.

Let's not act like the HoTS 2.0 team doesn't miss massively when making heroes from their inspiration.


You realize that if they did. We'd have pretty much no supports and no warrior.

(And I don't see whitemane ever getting the ability to ressurect her team)
Medivh opened one portal once and suddenly opening portals is part of his base kit blizz pls
What the characters do in matches, their spells, mechanics or whatever has nothing to do with their lore.

Matches are not real, they are virtual projections, renders.

Imagine that the Heroes of Blizzard games play HotS. It's not like the Tyrande you see in the screen in the match is the real Tyrande. It's just a game. That the real Tyrande can play.
09/24/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Ai
What the characters do in matches, their spells, mechanics or whatever has nothing to do with their lore.

Matches are not real, they are virtual projections, renders.

Imagine that the Heroes of Blizzard games play HotS. It's not like the Tyrande you see in the screen in the match is the real Tyrande. It's just a game. That the real Tyrande can play.


But the real Tyrande would be so frustrated to find out she can't even kill a minion with basic attacks where in lore she can kill entire armies all on her own.
09/24/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Ai
What the characters do in matches, their spells, mechanics or whatever has nothing to do with their lore.

Matches are not real, they are virtual projections, renders.

Imagine that the Heroes of Blizzard games play HotS. It's not like the Tyrande you see in the screen in the match is the real Tyrande. It's just a game. That the real Tyrande can play.


this is wrong. a characters kit and playstyle is a representation of that character in hots. Blizzard often times try their best to properly implement a characters theme into the game. That's why you see them use abilities that they use in their own respective games.
Why can't blizz just release a second Tyrande with a pure dps style and name her "Night Warrior Tyrande" so we can ignore the current iteration.
09/24/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Gonchin
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the way he heals is not accurate to his character at all. He's never had access to some "virus". The only healing he had in star craft 2 was a passive healing aoe. Outside of healing the rest of his kit makes literally zero sense especially his ults.


You are asking for his "infestation" mechanic. He turns his entire team into infested terrans.

If you watched a film about a Stukov match, his team would look progressively more zerg-y. Carapace comes out and seals wounds. Tentacles sprout out of amputated limbs, that sort of thing. He is "healing" by merging your body with the zerg strains. Think of the Dehaka trait - that's basically what his Q gives you.

The virus he puts on the enemies infests them in a negative way. It gives them extra limbs that slow down their movement. It puts an extra five knees on one leg, so they have trouble walking.


he doesn't turn anybody into an infested terran. as infestation is a permanent effect. (unless cured specifically)

the fantasy of him infesting his team and the enemy team does not actually work very well. As the visuals don't represent this. albeit with good reason. His kit outside of the healing again do not represent his abilites. him spreading a virus to slow his opponent temporarily makes little sense, as if such a zerg strain were to enter anything it would be permanently infected.

his kit should have been that heal, corrosive blast from heart of the swarm, and the ability to infest structures. This would have been WAY more accurate to his character than his current kit and would have allowed him to still be the support that he is. (lurking arm really is a strange ability that makes no sense although it's a good one)

edit: for those who are unaware corrosive blast was an ability that dealt damage and increased damage to that target.
09/24/2018 07:14 AMPosted by phaseshifter
09/23/2018 04:36 AMPosted by Darmonic
...

Tassadar kit makes zero sense other than his Archon ultimate.

Tyrande in Warcraft 3 and WoW was never a healer despite being a "priestess".

Garrosh kit is hot mess.

Mephisto. Enough said.

Whitemane having "Paladin" abilities and no "arise, champion" ability... her most notorious line.

Let's not act like the HoTS 2.0 team doesn't miss massively when making heroes from their inspiration.


You realize that if they did. We'd have pretty much no supports and no warrior.

(And I don't see whitemane ever getting the ability to ressurect her team)


This is objectively false.

Tassadar is just a sentry unit on a templar body.

We could have a sentry hero for the same reason Fenix,Zagara,Hammer,Probius and many other are playable.

Even then their are tons of heroes that could be support or warrior. When I say garrosh kit doesn't fit I mean his kit makes very little since for his character. If you look at Yrel's kit here honestly fits Garrosh a lot better than his current flip bot kit.

Whitemane they tried a mass rez ultimate and it was broken obviously they also tried giving her a pet ultimate that she could ressurect but it also didn't feel right so with zero innovation at all one of the first warcraft heroes that show lore ressurection and self ressurection was instead giving a damage circle ultimate and a healing circle ultimate.

Imo Whitemane mass rez could have worked if they balanced it to be fair... maybe instead of permanent ressurection they all get picked up temporary weaker versions of their actual hero *they revive as psuedo Abathur clones with no talents and no ultimates with a duration of maybe 4 seconds*
Lately, I have been playing her as a stun DPS carry. It´s quite interesting how a lot of Teams I played in, don´t understand this and expect me to heal their dives. If you want to trigger people, play Tyrande these days... it´s crazy what a bad rework can do to people.

In the past, people knew she was a dps carry with healing support, they realized that diving is bad and they behaved. Now they expect you to heal them 24/7 and I always cry a bit inside if three players stand next to me, pinging me like crazy as I could just throw out an AOE heal and wouldn´t have CD´s or anything.

Hopefully her win rate goes down even more now, so that we can forget about this mistake and give Tyrande her identity back.

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