I'd like to know your opinion of the Tassadar issue

General Discussion
For starters, I guess most of you have already read something here or there about many people being unhappy with Tassadar's current kit. I'll try to summon the reasons.

- Before HotS was released, Tassadar wasn't going to be one of the first heroes. Instead, they had developed a Sentry hero. A Sentry is a robotic support unit.

- They realized a Sentry wasn't iconic, so they gave it a couple of high templar abilities (psi storm and archon) and voilà: HotS' Tassadar was born.

- So, as you can imagine, many SC fans thought there was something weird: why did Tassadar have more Sentry featured than High Templar's? Things like Force Wall, Plasma Shield and Distortion Beam(first as a talent and then baseline after the rework).

- Years have passed and now we live a resurgence of people requesting Tassadar to be redone with a full templar kit. On the one hand, it's difficult not to see how Tassadar creating walls and using distortion beam instead of Gantrithor, Psi Assault and Feedback is like Muradin having as ablities Holy Light and Divine Shield instead of Thunder Clap and Avatar. But on the other hand, there are a lot of non-StarCraft players that have grown accustomed to his current kit and don't care if it "fits" the fantasy of the character or not. They enjoy current Tassadar anyway. Other people suggest splitting current Tassadar into two different heroes: an assassin with a lore-friendly kit and a support with his other current abilities.

Tassadar is my second most played hero and my favourite StarCraft character. I feel like his current kit is indeed underwhelming when talking about feeling like playing as the High Templar Executor that was able to wield both Khalai and Nerazim energies. And I'd love if they gave him a new kit. But I admit I have fun with his current kit too, even if it doesn't fit the character except for psi storm and archon. For me, the splitting idea is spot on, but...

I'd like to know what's your opinion. Everybody, from SC players to people that didn't even know Tassadar was made like this.
Did Tassadar ever directly engage in combat? Is it that far-fetched to assume he would strengthen his allies, leading from behind? Why haven't you mentioned Dimensional Shift, a beautiful ability that captures how the High Templar move (you can clearly see it in the LotV cinematic)?

Sure, Tassadar needs a creative rework. But I doubt it has to be ground-breaking.
09/16/2018 05:32 AMPosted by Adûnâi
Did Tassadar ever directly engage in combat? Is it that far-fetched to assume he would strengthen his allies, leading from behind? Why haven't you mentioned Dimensional Shift, a beautiful ability that captures how the High Templar move (you can clearly see it in the LotV cinematic)?

Sure, Tassadar needs a creative rework. But I doubt it has to be ground-breaking.


About Dimensional Shift, I have always been a fan of the way high templars moved back in SC1, leaving behind that 'echo'. But not there and not in the LotV cinematic that has anything to do with becoming invisible and invulnerable. I don't mind Dimensional Shift, though. Some people said it was originally named Void Shift and I think it would fit.

Well, one of SC1 missions is you and two zealots fighting against hordes of zerg (later you get some help from some Terran and reinforcements, but few) and there's literally no way of beating it than wrecking one hundred zerglings, hydralisks and infested terrans with psi storm. And if you mean via cinematic, we only see him in the one where he sacrifices himself. Don't forget we are talking about SC1, most characters didn't even appeared fighting in cinematics. Not Kerrigan. Not Raynor. Not Zeratul. But I think it's clear all of them engaged in combat.

I may understand that you do like the status quo and want to justify it but most Tassadar's current kit being the one they were going to give to a Sentry is a fact. And I wouldn't be against giving Tassadar some utility or so, since Hallucination, for example, was a 'support' ability. But there's no way Force Wall and Distortion Beam fit. And the Shield only justification would be "well, every protoss has something to do with shields".

And the problem is: it's not like there aren't things they could give to Tassadar. If we were talking about, I don't know, a hydralisk or a zergling hero, or see Blaze, I'd understand: well, those are heroes based on units with little actual abilities, so they have to made up a couple of things just for them. But it's not Tassadar's case. Tassadar could be able to use Gantrithor, since Tychus has Odin, Raynor has Hyperion and Artanis has Spear of Adun. There are a lot of ways to introduce Feedback without it being a mana-burn ability. Since he mastered the Dark Templar energies too, even giving him Confusion would've been more appropiate. than Force Wall.

There's no need to give a templar the recognizable features of the robotic support. It's like watching Morales entering siege mode or Kerrigan using glaive wurm as her basic attack. Or, as I said, giving a Warcraft character abilities that have nothing to do with their class. Can you imagine Thrall using Gazlowe's turrets?
Yeah, sure, I wouldn't mind a Sentry taking half of current Tassadar's kit, and Tassadar getting a bigger rework :P
I think the issue is that it's really easy for him to be OP, so they don,t know what to do with him.

I mean, we've seen him be OP before. A char with on demand slow, AoE, shields and playmaking heroic has to be hard to balance. Plus he has a basic ability that counters channeled/delayed heroics targetted at him. So he's hard to corner when he's good.
Short answer: Hots Tassadar /=/ SC Tassadar

Abilities, hero model, voice... Playing him, I don't feel like I'm really High Templar. And even as Sentry hero, he's weak.
He needs new model from SC 1, abilities (rework), new voice line (as bonus, it would be great).
Yea they really need to work on Tass soon. Maybe give him some ''Mage build'' or something. I've heard very long time ago he was actually doing a lot of of damage, a bit like a thunder mage.

Now he's overnerfed, and only fit in specific comp like with a Illidan, Tracer and Valla. I wish he could good in any comps.
We have to save our savior!
Rework his voice so it doesn't sound like he's about to go poo. It's funny, but can be distracting.
09/16/2018 08:43 AMPosted by Tauri
We have to save our savior!

Current Tassadar is a Sentry cover with an Tass image to encourage other protoss in the nexus, the REAL Tass is in a stasis cell, waiting to be rescue.
I actually just used Tassadar as an example in a thread I recently wrote in which I stated I believe some heroes are trying to do too much and should be split into multiple different heroes.

Tassadar is one such who's kit and talents should focus more on his mage-esque abilities while moving most of his healing kit to another Protoss, perhaps Aldaris.

If Plasma Shield was dropped as one his base skills, it would make room for more iconic such as Feedback. I'd be hesitate to give Tassadar Hallucination as I feel like it would move him more a weird quazi-support role.

2 charges of Psi Storm, Feedback, and perhaps a big psi shot that could be channeled once "accumulating" enough psi could make for a very fun kit and be much more iconic to Tassadar.
09/16/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Copypastable
Rework his voice so it doesn't sound like he's about to go poo. It's funny, but can be distracting.

You know, that's actually funny because in Spain, the voice of Tassadar in SC1 was extremely deep and badass. The first time I heard that imposing voice and saw that black and white face with the blue eyes I was like "Holy crap, this guy is the boss".

But in SC2 and HotS he sounds old as hell. But ey, Tassadar sounding like an intimidating and powerful fellow would make his current kit even more unfitting.

Deep badass voice Tassadar-> High Templar Executor that wrecks everyone with psionic energy and commands a huge capital ship.
Old geezer voice Tassadar-> A guy who creates walls and tickles people with a lazor.
my opinion is that the dev team should simply talk directly to Masters/Grandmasters and Pro Players and try to figure out a way to make tassadar more viable in ranked played while keeping him decently strong in pro play.

there are literally no better groups in HOTS to talk to than the people at the height of the game (where tassadar is fairly strong and used to great success) and those at the highest levels of ranked play (where tassadar still struggles).
Just give him feedback

12 sec cd

Deals 100 damage + 10 percent of an enemy's missing health.

That way you could wittle your enemies down like a high templar, and then be rewarded by making your e do more damage.
Main issue i've had with tassadar is the amount of power-balance investing in his having 'plasma leach' on his kit. Sure, having sentry-based abilities isn't the most 'iconic' for people wanting the zomg high mage templar fantasy, but given that protoss use machines to supplement their low numbers, but otherwise use psi and tech to amplify the psi, the abilities shown on those units are things sufficiently empowered templar should be able to do via psi/khala/void/tech etc.

If the 'healing' potential on tassadar were toned down, then he could be buffed back up to focus on damage, zoning, scouting and being more of a 'specialist' sort of contributing hero and focus on his unique contributions that don't involve hp recovery.

In that regard, I think life-steal, esp via ally empowerment baseline, would be better suited for another hero, such as a dreadlord, esp since I don't think a 'life-leach' aura (like the wc3 unit has) would be a solid a unit ability (for balance and gameplay) as just having it be a targeted buff, at which point, that would conflict with tassadar's plasma leach shenanigans.

With the shift in how supports are being reworked to reward agressive play to fuel their ability to support/heal their team (malf moonfires, tyrande cdr, bw procs, whitemane heals, etc) I don't think tass would fit in that same sort of design so it'd be better to cut the 'support' aspect out and focus on the hybrid/utility and have him be more akin to yrel in having talents to bolster allies, but not have that be the crux of his kit balance.

In that regard I'd say something like
1) tass reduces his heal/support for better baseline numbers
2) lifesteal moved over to hero built around that (like a dreadlord)
3) shield-bot play also moved to another unit -- one I'd say based on a spirit-link like gameplay in mixing heals and shields who's tactical fantasy is establishing a mini-khala link with their allies, so their qwe abilities would be almost entire ally-targeted as they react to damage preventing, shifting damage taken, and then some other stuff to round out the kit for unique gameplay.
to put tassadars problems in a nut shell:

Tassadar is an enabler of dive heroes who doesn't do a good job of enabling them outside of 5 stacking in qm. He can't do anything of value on his own and always needs someone else to what what he "sets up".
What i hate most about the 'new' Tass is his basic attack, these days, a lot of the reworks implement a a talent into the hero's baseline kit when that specific talent greatly overshadows its competition.

But in Tassadar's case they went the complete opposite and gave him Distortion Beam, a bad talent that no one ever picked as baseline, now with several nerfs and a worthless basic attack he barely feels like a hero.

I favor the idea of making him a true High Templar, but anything that gets rid of Distortion Beam would make me happy.
09/16/2018 11:15 PMPosted by Saint
I favor the idea of making him a true High Templar, but anything that gets rid of Distortion Beam would make me happy.

That'd be something.
I never played SC2, but I remember in SC1 he was the only high templar unit that had a basic attack and was able to cast the very powerful psy storm, which nearly 1shotted most zerg units.

As far as Tassadar goes in hots, I've never really had complaints about his playstyle untill he was reworked. I don't like distortion beam as his basic attack and on his own Tassadar is so weak he's gone from 'just a + hp to AA heroes' to 'just barely + hp to AA heroes'. I feel like he is in a worse situation than Raynor before his rework. Yes some people will probably enjoy how he plays now, yes he wins (some) matches. My winrate with Raynor before his rework was still around 65% but that does not mean he was a good or interesting hero. I liked how he played out but after his rework I enjoy him so much more and he became relevant again (I'm going to leave the fact that he was overtuned behind for the sake of argument that his playstyle itself was massively improved).

As for Tassadar, being the lowest winrate hero while being a very straightforward one speaks for itself in my opinion. This isn't like how pre rework Medivh was factually strong but only in the right hands, Tassadar does not have the same skillcap yet still resents at 34% winrate. His niche is being a +hp and leeching to only 1 AA hero while providing next to nothing in return. I don't like saying this, but there is zero reasons to pick Tassadar in any situation where you couldn't pick at least a meta hero, or a great offpick. There is nothing he provides, nothing he can do to improve the team. He does not make for a great addition, he is just dead weight that might provide just enough contribution through force wall that a team that would already have won 4v5 wins harder in a 5v5.

The problem is in his kit. He needs to be actually reworked instead of being rebalanced around the same mistakes in his kit over and over again. Buff his numbers and he still is the + hp and leeching bot he is now, only in an overtuned way so he becomes mandatory. But still a shield bot. With no gameplay other than shield the AA DD and press W on the nearest wave. With this mechanic you don't shield the tank, you don't shield yourself, you shield the AA DD and hope you win the fight. Shielding a tank guts the team, shielding a mage guts the team, shielding yourself guts the team. Not healthy game design.

I don't think this is the fate an iconic character such as Tassadar deserves. I like to refrain from the Sentry - High Templar discussion since I don't know what a Sentry hero does, but I do know what he meant in SC1 and there is no justice being done to him in his current state.

Assuming we want Tassadar to remain a support, there are a couple of changes that I believe would make the hero healthier in the meta game. The first thing I would change is to remove his leeching shield. It only enables AA heroes and is useless for mages and tanks. The second thing I would change is one of the following things: either the person with a shield on him gets healed for an x amount of damage done by psyionic storm, or Tassadar gets to auto attack a friendly target with shield on him, healing for x amount per second. Leeching shield is a problem. Too big numbers, mandatory shield bot, too small numbers, irrelevant shield bot. Shifting the healing mechanic to something more universal can still maintain the shielding fantasy, without shifting it into an AA only niche. The next thing that we need is for Tassadar to be able to shield multipe targets. I suggest either somehow work shield battery into his kit, or to provide him with multiple charges on his Q. This way he can provide support without being completely gutted during teamfights himself. Currently, the win condition fighting tassadar teams is: is E used? No? Dive and win or their AA dies.

As for something flavourful, I would also remove his force wall and replace it with either a carrier unit that attacks up to 8 targets at once, or crashes into something for massive damage, kind of like sulfuran hammer.

These are my humble suggestions, I hope that they have been found useful.

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