New Garden is what we needed 4 years ago, not today!

General Discussion
I've spent some time on the new Garden of Terror Map on the PTR.

Back when Heroes first came out in March 2014, a big problem was that many players needed *A LOT* of experience on the Dragon and later the Garden Terror to really get a good feel for the mechanics.

I'll be first to admit that even today, many players have difficulty with the Dragon, Garden Terror and Protector. Basic, basic, basic things such as going in head-on without a minion wave and still major mistakes by inexperienced players.

That being said, the community has now had over 4 years to learn these mechanics, teach other players about these mechanics and even make guides.

The new Garden of Terror is OVERLY n00b friendly and feels far too much like a re-re-rehash of newer maps like Alterac Pass.

Frankly, instead of redesigning the mechanics of the map, I would have really preferred adding additional in game UI elements to help such as the toast system that was originally used in Warcraft 3.

These changes feels like Blizzard is dumbing down the game unnecessarily.

I'm not a fan of it or this mentality.

Instead of dumbing down the game, Blizzard really needs to focus on UI Elements that help convey game mechanics, internal guides or enticing fan made guides that are easily accessible (seriously, whatever happened to the Fan API that was "coming really soon" 18 months ago?) and --- MOST IMPORTANTLY better grouping of players within their relative knowledge base of the game.

With all the recent nods to G.I. Joe via skins, I don't feel like I say it, but here goes "Knowing is half the battle".

While superior knowledge in MOBAs/Brawlers doesn't translate into skill, it does, at the very least, translate into better game experiences.
Noobs don't want to be educated. Hence the problem of knowledge transfers.
09/18/2018 10:12 PMPosted by Moonshadow
Noobs don't want to be educated. Hence the problem of knowledge transfers.


The vast majority tends to be very good at "monkey see, monkey do".

When a trend becomes popular and proven, people tend to mimic it.

That's how many people learn to play new heroes.

The Dragon and Garden Terror have been around so long now, that despite people are still making mistakes, they are relatively comfortable with the concept now.

There's at least a high population of players that are VERY comfortable with how to play as the terror now.

There's just not a need to change it at this point.

4 years ago, I would argued for this sort of change; but the product has shipped and people have learned through blood, sweet and tears now.

I wholly believe changing it now is more harmful then helpful.
Doubt that noob mistakes is why they changed it. Lower leagues players make the same type of mistakes whether inside a terror/dk or not. That's why they are in those leagues. Dumbing everything down would eventually get to 5 raynors vs 5 raynors single lane map pewpewing each other. I'll be honest I havent read anything about it, but I'd guess it's similar logic to the hanamura changes - they don't like how competing objectives work in proplay/higher leagues (I'd think especially in proplay since it's being watched). They've been pretty insisting lately on turning the game into a brawler only. So that you are forced to fight.
09/18/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Fuzz
Doubt that noob mistakes is why they changed it. Lower leagues players make the same type of mistakes whether inside a terror/dk or not. That's why they are in those leagues. Dumbing everything down would eventually get to 5 raynors vs 5 raynors single lane map pewpewing each other. I'll be honest I havent read anything about it, but I'd guess it's similar logic to the hanamura changes - they don't like how competing objectives work in proplay/higher leagues (I'd think especially in proplay since it's being watched). They've been pretty insisting lately on turning the game into a brawler only. So that you are forced to fight.


Hananura was automated. In got you could witness some amazing plays at higher levels. They take that away to serve noobz.
09/18/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Fuzz
I'll be honest I havent read anything about it, but I'd guess it's similar logic to the hanamura changes - they don't like how competing objectives work in proplay/higher leagues (I'd think especially in proplay since it's being watched).

They changed Hanamura because it was the single-worst map ever introduced to the game. It was a map that had so many design problems, the only way they could remedy them was to remove Hanamura from the play pools entirely, and then spend about a year reworking it from the ground up.

It all but invalidated split-pushing and siege-based heroes, made Bribe too powerful, and its payload gimmick wasn't thought out well at all. The payload moved faster the more bodies were next to it, and counted heroes that were stealthed (this being back when stealth actually meant invisible). Rexxar, The Lost Vikings, and any hero with stealth became incredibly powerful on this map in addition to anyone with Bribe (such as The Lost Vikings). If one team got an early lead, it was incredibly easy for them to keep it that way for the rest of the game with the other side being unable to do anything except pray for them to screw up or otherwise wait for the agonizingly slow game to end, because the only way to damage the core was with the payloads.

It was by far the most complained about map on both Reddit and these forums. You could count original Hanamura's fans on one hand.
09/18/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lighthammer
The new Garden of Terror is OVERLY n00b friendly and feels far too much like a re-re-rehash of newer maps like Alterac Pass.

Doesn't this mean the old GoT should have occured before when people were still figuring out the game and would maybe still use their brain to not be bad?
09/18/2018 11:30 PMPosted by MacWeak
09/18/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lighthammer
The new Garden of Terror is OVERLY n00b friendly and feels far too much like a re-re-rehash of newer maps like Alterac Pass.

Doesn't this mean the old GoT should have occured before when people were still figuring out the game and would maybe still use their brain to not be bad?


No, the player base needed time to acclimate both to what it means to play a MOBA and what the differences in this game was.

When the map came out, there were also TONS of changes coming to the game that needed testing.

Lets not forget that people still needed to learn heroes. That comes after everything else.

It's just like how Eternal Conflict was a really bad map for its time too, but now players have agreed upon strategies to dealing with the map so its much more tolerable today then even a year ago.
09/18/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Lighthammer
That being said, the community has now had over 4 years to learn these mechanics, teach other players about these mechanics and even make guides.


The fundamantal error of your argument. Do you really assume that the players that started playing four years ago and the players that are playing now are the same people? Do you really assume that the casuals that play one or two games a day (or less) want to waste ten minutes of their free time to watch guides for a game - espacially a map they only play every two weeks - that is only supposed to bring a little variety into their evening program?

Obviously not. Most people don't seem to have the time to copy al least the most viable talent build from a hero guide page so they can play the newly picked hero for their next game with a little more success.
Information for a game that in required to play this game successfully and with fun for all involved shoudn't have to be gatherd from outside of this game itself - that's just bad game design.
Because of that I really appreciate the changes to GoT. They keep the map pool diversivied (since no map works exactly the same way) but reintroduce fundamental mechanics that are allready known from other maps and are therefore easier to understand.
This is what brawls should have been from the start -

Silly, fun minigames that actually teach you the game mechanics subliminally.

Why has there never been a Dragons vs Terrors or something like that? Something to give people experience in the actual vehicles.

Instead, we got hammer only, nova only that don't teach you anything.
Yup, Garden Terror is becoming Alteric Pass/Tomb of the Spider Queen V.2.0.

Really disappointing since Garden Terror felt really unique. I'm not saying it was my favorite map, but I'd rather have unique maps than copy-pasta maps.
09/19/2018 12:12 AMPosted by Lighthammer
09/18/2018 11:30 PMPosted by MacWeak
...
Doesn't this mean the old GoT should have occured before when people were still figuring out the game and would maybe still use their brain to not be bad?


No, the player base needed time to acclimate both to what it means to play a MOBA and what the differences in this game was.

When the map came out, there were also TONS of changes coming to the game that needed testing.

Lets not forget that people still needed to learn heroes. That comes after everything else.

It's just like how Eternal Conflict was a really bad map for its time too, but now players have agreed upon strategies to dealing with the map so its much more tolerable today then even a year ago.


assuming there is a player base at that point. lol they banned to many people and a bunch of people on top of that are quiting now.
09/18/2018 10:12 PMPosted by Moonshadow
Noobs don't want to be educated. Hence the problem of knowledge transfers.

Noobs don't want to learn how to play with Tassadar and this is easier to blame Tassadar's players for them.
09/19/2018 01:19 AMPosted by Shinigami
The fundamantal error of your argument. Do you really assume that the players that started playing four years ago and the players that are playing now are the same people? Do you really assume that the casuals that play one or two games a day (or less) want to waste ten minutes of their free time to watch guides for a game - espacially a map they only play every two weeks - that is only supposed to bring a little variety into their evening program?


When the community matures enough, lesser players benefit heavily from observing more knowledgeable players.

There are now videos, tutorials and streams how to do it right.

Statistically speaking, pulling from Merton Pathology, only 10% of a society needs to learn how to do something correctly before 90% of the society learns from those people through empirical observation.

This is literally "Monkey see, monkey do".
I think it's funny that the "pro's" kept voting GoT out of the map rotation. Probably the same bunch of marys, who would halfass just about anything else they found to be difficult.

Keep listening to their advice though, blizz. After all, the esports scene for HotS is thriving (not), and the playerbase is doing very well (not).
I dont get why in pro lvl half the maps are never played. They should be the bests at the game yet they never play blackhearts bay or warhead.

On the main thread yes it feels way too alteract cursed spiderqueenesque but again they have tu dumb down the maps objective. Ppl in diamond lvl 1000+ still tank 2 towers with no minion waves with the dk and manage to take down only 1 tower... Or not

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum