Reddit is destroying HOTS (Garden of terror replacement)

General Discussion
09/13/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Coggles
I guess I have an unpopular opinion then. Garden of terror is (was) terrible, and I love the rework.

Having to kill the bosses to get the seeds is not fun. Doing a boss like that and having the risk of the enemy team coming to wipe you (while you're at a disadvantage taking damage/risk of being stunlocked) should be reserved for doing an OPTIONAL boss of the map. It shouldn't be part of the main objective. They can also steal the seeds easily, like genji can just jump in and dash out.

And unlike haunted mines, there's TWO annoying bosses that spawn every time. Trust me there is a reason you don't see this map in HGC. It sucks. Sorry if you liked it but we have plenty of unique maps like BOE and towers of doom that are really good and fun. Good riddance garden of fail


So the answer to that is to change the boss into a large camp of small seedlings. At least for the first two spawns.

If your chocolate ice-cream is too bitter, you adjust it until it is good chocolate ice cream. You don't throw it out and replace it with your third version of vanilla.

This sets a precedent, where all the maps will be turned into re-skins of the same crap. I don't like it. There were plenty of other options to fix the map.

You mention hating to fight a boss every objective phase, then praise BOE as a unique map? Uh, ok then.
09/13/2018 01:34 PMPosted by MrE
One of my favorite things about that map was the day/night cycle....


This.

I hate the map, I really do but I am also disappointed with how they reworked the map AND removing the day/night cycle which was one of the very few things I liked about the map.

Keep the day/night cycle. It suits the "terror" in its name.
Agree with this also. Was afraid that no one would agree with me.

Garden of Tower was JUST FINE. Shouldn't be made a clone of Alterac Pass.
09/13/2018 09:26 PMPosted by ForeverSalty
Why are they wasting time and resources reworking a map no one asked them to rework? The game is already on a skeleton crew here, we don't have time for this.


The dev team is constantly trying to design the game around two fronts that ultimately kinda sorta have the same goal, making the game attractive to LOL/DOTA players:

One front is trying to make balance, the suspension system, etc favor bad/hyper casual/low skill players rather than good players and people who want to get better. The silence system is the strictest it has ever been and even calling out toxic play (such as someone being afk or refusing to participate) can be grounds for an auto silence. many balance changes are made only with super low skill players in mind (laning changes made to appease LOL and DOTA 2 casuals flocking to HOTS, chromie nerfed to appease bronze 5 AI only players because they got killed by her once, etc) so that the game can attract casual players from other mobas (something that will never work, people who want a a game similar to LOL or DOTA will just go play those games).

The other front is the Esports scene. Things like homogenizing Garden of Terror are meant to make the esports scene more linear, that way, instead of attracting an audience that likes HOTS, they can hope to leech off other MOBAS audiences. the problem is that again, people who want to play/see traditional mobas are already doing that and won't come to HOTS in mass droves just because the devs are making it more like a traditional moba.
Boycott dev's team of Hots.
09/13/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Gonchin
09/13/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Coggles
I guess I have an unpopular opinion then. Garden of terror is (was) terrible, and I love the rework.

Having to kill the bosses to get the seeds is not fun. Doing a boss like that and having the risk of the enemy team coming to wipe you (while you're at a disadvantage taking damage/risk of being stunlocked) should be reserved for doing an OPTIONAL boss of the map. It shouldn't be part of the main objective. They can also steal the seeds easily, like genji can just jump in and dash out.

And unlike haunted mines, there's TWO annoying bosses that spawn every time. Trust me there is a reason you don't see this map in HGC. It sucks. Sorry if you liked it but we have plenty of unique maps like BOE and towers of doom that are really good and fun. Good riddance garden of fail


So the answer to that is to change the boss into a large camp of small seedlings. At least for the first two spawns.

If your chocolate ice-cream is too bitter, you adjust it until it is good chocolate ice cream. You don't throw it out and replace it with your third version of vanilla.

This sets a precedent, where all the maps will be turned into re-skins of the same crap. I don't like it. There were plenty of other options to fix the map.

You mention hating to fight a boss every objective phase, then praise BOE as a unique map? Uh, ok then.


No there is nothing wrong with a PVE objective like the goblins on infernal shrines, BOE bosses or the small seedings on garden of terror.

BOE bosses don't use their autos on you. Anyone can go up and start doing damage, and you can choose to attack or defend. They have the similar telegraphed stuns but don't do as much damage and you aren't nearly dead if you get hit - anyone can go do the objective. You need a tank+assassin or assassin+healing minimum to do the GOT bosses.

Doing the boss isn't as risky as on GOT. The analogy would be like if you're doing the boss on BOE then the other team comes up, and all the damage you did gets stolen and gives them credit.
They would be absolutely dumb to keep it at this point. As of now it's 2.4k upvotes and 3.7k downvotes on YouTube.

That means they're keeping it.

They really are preparing for their own funeral.
I am happy with the changes because it is a sick burn to brain dead PvE specialists.

I guess reddit has better understanding of the game instead of the recurring complains in the forums here which bring nothing of value.
09/13/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Ainz
Honestly the rework is good for the HL and Competetive scene because the map is now pretty much like the already good cursed hollow map or tomb of the spider queen.

But yea I'm kinda sad its gone. Couldnt we have just gotten a new map that's like this one? I dont mind the new map but old terror was still fun.


Its funny that this got downvoted so much. In a pretty much copy of this thread I wrote the same:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20769027383#post-16

and it got upvoted.

Seems like the forum is a bit bipolar.

Not that I wanna complain its hilarious tho
I often criticize people for claiming "This is something no one asked for" often citing many places where people were wrong to channel large portions of the community.

However, I can truly say, I don't think anyone actually asked for this.

Both the Dragon Knight and Garden Terror Vehicles took a long time to get to the place where people feel the power of using them and have a generally good concept of what they are supposed to be doing. Don't get me wrong, people make a lot of noobish mistakes in it; but the general understanding of the strategy is commonly there.

This feels like another attempt at gerrymanering something that is already working well and Blizzard making claims of people complaining is actually their own strawman fallacy because someone on the team thought they know better the community.

Not a fan of this kind of hand holding or playing of the strawman.
09/13/2018 03:03 PMPosted by MortalWombat
09/13/2018 02:10 PMPosted by PieknyTomek
...

There was an ama.
Yes they mentioned it in AMA what I mentioned here myself multiple times already.

Since it wasnt obvious the first time - where is link to that highly upvoted reddit thread that convinced Blizz to rework GoT, before the first announcement?


Not in the one from September obviously. I think it was an ama from around May.

What is sad is they communicate more with reddit than with their own forum, smh.
3 pages and still no evidence whatsoever what reddit got to do with GoT rework. Oh my, how predictable.
i dont like new map, blizz bring back old garden of terror.WE DONT WANT FAMILIAR MECHANIC. We want maps to stay diffrent from each other.What is the point to have second map with this same mechanic-tribute or seeds what a diffrence..
09/13/2018 11:57 AMPosted by cycledance
Very disappointed with the new map. It is not an update or redesign. It is the process of replacing a map with unique gameplay elements with, as someone on youtube calls it: Alterac with flowers.

I think Blizzard listens too much to the reddit community. It has been demonstrated years ago that the upvote/downvote system of reddit turns people into a flock.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-upvote-downvote-sites-like-reddit-breed-irrational-1067235954

When you look at the up/downvotes (which is not the same as reddit) and comments on youtube you can see that this change is polarising. (50% downvotes.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=148&v=JHy4tKEG7yc


Reddit isn't destroying hots, the current developers are.
bhwahaha nice Blizzard!!! One step ahead of me: a rework to make everyone mad. I didn't think of that one.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20768636740#post-13

I am excited. What trolly things will you think of next?
09/14/2018 08:42 AMPosted by Lighthammer
I often criticize people for claiming "This is something no one asked for" often citing many places where people were wrong to channel large portions of the community.

However, I can truly say, I don't think anyone actually asked for this.

Both the Dragon Knight and Garden Terror Vehicles took a long time to get to the place where people feel the power of using them and have a generally good concept of what they are supposed to be doing. Don't get me wrong, people make a lot of noobish mistakes in it; but the general understanding of the strategy is commonly there.

This feels like another attempt at gerrymanering something that is already working well and Blizzard making claims of people complaining is actually their own strawman fallacy because someone on the team thought they know better the community.

Not a fan of this kind of hand holding or playing of the strawman.


For what it's worth, Blizzard as a company does have a history of thinking they know better than the community, to the point of openly mocking the community and telling them that they don't know what they want.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuOYmqSF6OQ

Keep in mind that private, vanilla wow servers had hundreds of thousands if not millions of players total before Blizzard started trying to shut them down (again,despite Blizz being confident that people didn't want old WOW).

I absolutely think it's possible the HOTS dev team is extremely overconfident and thinks they know about the game and what people want more than the community.
Agree that the changes make it too bland.

Gather 3 seeds.. so like cursed hallow.. But you have to kill the minons protecting it .. so like alterac valley too... and 3 waves of garden terrors will spawn and push with the disabling plant... so like tomb of the spider queen and alterac with deactivated towers like cursed hallow...

We have 3 maps with control a vehicle. GoT, DragonShire, Volskaya and they all play well.. nobody every complains about them other than maybe a personal dislike for the map itself and back when the protector was useless. I personnaly hate dragonshire but i like that its different from the rest.

Blizz has never not gone through with a change like this before so i doubt they will start now but it would be nice if they listened this time.
09/13/2018 07:27 PMPosted by cycledance
Please keep both maps as they are entirely different. We can have multiple maps based on the same realm.

I think most of us could get behind that.

09/14/2018 02:15 PMPosted by DigitaLegacy
Blizz has never not gone through with a change like this before so i doubt they will start now but it would be nice if they listened this time.

Artifacts.
And like one other time but I can't recall what currently.
09/13/2018 11:57 AMPosted by cycledance
I think Blizzard listens too much to the reddit community. It has been demonstrated years ago that the upvote/downvote system of reddit turns people into a flock.

It isn't just upvotes and downvotes, it's upvotes and downvotes with a Karma system...

There's this interesting phenomenon in psychology where if you tell controlled subjects before an experiment begins to give the wrong answers to a series of questions, then have one randomized participant give their answers, 9 times out of 10 they will agree with the rest of the group that happens to be wrong out of fear of being outcast.

For example, if you take a group of 6 people, and tell 5 of them to give you the wrong answer to the question 2+2, then have one person give whatever they think is the wrong answer, the other 5 can say the answer is 3 and very likely that 6th person will agree the answer is 3 even though they know it is wrong.

Reddit is a lot like that. Out of fear of being ostracized, people will just blindly agree or disagree with exactly what everyone agrees or disagrees with so they won't get downvoted and in effect, lose precious Karma.

Reddit is next to useless to gather feedback on anything that involves matters of opinion, because the hive will just echo whatever the upvote / downvote trend is.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum