Thank you for allowing Solos into Team league for next season

General Discussion
09/21/2018 06:22 AMPosted by GGGLHF
The fact that a small percentage of the population would be happy to constantly get stomped so they can learn (I tend to believe that you actually wouldn't enjoy it so much) does not make up for the fact that most players will HATE getting constantly stomped by better players


(citation needed)

Dude, there was a huge swath of time where competitive gaming didn't have rating based match making. We all still had fun playing competitive games.

Tournaments don't sort players into "skill" pools, you can still get seeded into the tournament right next to that guy who won the tournament for 6 years in a row. It's still fun to play.

This idea that every single match has to be some absolutely fair game is fairly recent invention and no doubt a part of the of the "everybody gets a trophy" generation's push for absolute and unreasonable equality in everything.

Being the underdog that strives for the win, regardless of the odds, is a big part of our culture for a reason.
09/21/2018 06:22 AMPosted by GGGLHF
(the part with "suck as much as yourself" makes me smile like you have no idea).


This just means people who are at the same skill level in a more explicit language. You probably think i called you bad player but failed to realize that it's all very relative. Otherwise i really don't have any idea why this makes you smile?
Players only need to win 30% of the matches that they keep playing (you can use this if you want to play a game against a friend but you are already much better at the game then him, then let him win 30% if you want him to keep playing against you).
Obviously players would quit the game if they would get stomped every game if they don't see how they can get better. If they can improve they will eventually not get stomped anymore.
09/21/2018 06:22 AMPosted by GGGLHF
The fact that a small percentage of the population would be happy to constantly get stomped so they can learn (I tend to believe that you actually wouldn't enjoy it so much) does not make up for the fact that most players will HATE getting constantly stomped by better players


(citation needed)

Dude, there was a huge swath of time where competitive gaming didn't have rating based match making. We all still had fun playing competitive games.

Tournaments don't sort players into "skill" pools, you can still get seeded into the tournament right next to that guy who won the tournament for 6 years in a row. It's still fun to play.

This idea that every single match has to be some absolutely fair game is fairly recent invention and no doubt a part of the of the "everybody gets a trophy" generation's push for absolute and unreasonable equality in everything.

Being the underdog that strives for the win, regardless of the odds, is a big part of our culture for a reason.


You have your citation right there, it's from me :p It's just an opinion.

Tournament format and ongoing ladder are 2 different things.

I also believe that people pretending like they would be happy getting constantly matched against better players are actually fooling themselves.
09/21/2018 06:39 AMPosted by GGGLHF
Tournament format and ongoing ladder are 2 different things.


A ladder is just a tournament that takes place over a longer period of time.

I also believe that people pretending like they would be happy getting constantly matched against better players are actually fooling themselves.,


You may be too young to remember this (and as a result be a part of that "everybody gets a trophy" generation) but people played competitive games for years where there was no rating system that put them into "fair" matches. We just play game where there were better or worse players. Eventually everyone learns how to be a better player in order to compete. If we weren't having fun, there wouldn't even be a competitive gaming scene.

09/21/2018 06:39 AMPosted by GGGLHF
It's just an opinion.


It's an incorrect opinion that's not supported by data.
09/21/2018 06:39 AMPosted by GGGLHF
Tournament format and ongoing ladder are 2 different things.


A ladder is just a tournament that takes place over a longer period of time.

I also believe that people pretending like they would be happy getting constantly matched against better players are actually fooling themselves.,


You may be too young to remember this (and as a result be a part of that "everybody gets a trophy" generation) but people played competitive games for years where there was no rating system that put them into "fair" matches. We just play game where there were better or worse players. Eventually everyone learns how to be a better player in order to compete. If we weren't having fun, there wouldn't even be a competitive gaming scene.

09/21/2018 06:39 AMPosted by GGGLHF
It's just an opinion.


It's an incorrect opinion that's not supported by data.


Ok bro, you're going down the age path ... I was playing Starcraft at a pretty competitive level while I was 11 and back then I remember that there was a ladder for 1v1 (the only format I was playing) but maybe you were too young to be competing back then ? (jk, notice how I stayed on topic, ladder, mmr SHOWN back then, balanced matches and so on).

Just so you know, unless you never lose you end up eliminated at some point in a tournament, can you not see the difference with an ongoing ladder ?
09/21/2018 06:57 AMPosted by GGGLHF
Ok bro, you're going down the age path ... I was playing Starcraft at a pretty competitive level while I was 11 and back then I remember that there was a ladder for 1v1 (the only format I was playing) but maybe you were too young to be competing back then ?


I played Stacraft 2 at MLG in 2011.

09/21/2018 06:57 AMPosted by GGGLHF
Just so you know, unless you never lose you end up eliminated at some point in a tournament, can you not see the difference with an ongoing ladder ?


I didn't say that there weren't differences, I said that a Ranked Ladder was a long format Tournament. Just as players achieve a ranking based on their performance during a bracketed tournament (ie there's a 1st, 2nd, 3rd... Nth ranking for each player in the tournament) so too are there ranking during a ladder season. The difference only being how many games are played to achieve that ranking.

Most competitive ladders for play like professional sports. Think of it like Hockey or Baseball, where each team plays a large number of games. Towards the end of the season, those teams with the best records advance to the playoffs/championship games where the outcome works more like what you may think of as a competitive tournament. Even with HGC or WCS you can see this season structure, where teams (or players in the case of SC2) are awarded points throughout the season based on their performance. In some cases, the points competitors are awarded are relative to who they may be playing such that a player/team with a higher performance record is awarded less points for defeating a player/team with a lower performance record (and vice versa).

So yes, Competitive Ladders are tournaments.

09/21/2018 06:57 AMPosted by GGGLHF
you're going down the age path
'

Well I have to. When players like you make assumptions based only on your own life experience it's important to point that out. Your generation is notorious for it's over reliance on "fairness" in a world that is inherently unfair. It's a flaw that is pervasive in your assessment and problem solving patterns. No doubt due to a cultural shift where parents of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s didn't provide their children with an growth environment that encouraged them to overcome adversity rather then just helicoptering in to solve all their problems for them. To deny this phenomenon simply because it makes you feel uncomfortable would be negligent on my part.
You're a troll, I'm done talking to you.
09/21/2018 07:23 AMPosted by GGGLHF
You're a troll, I'm done talking to you.


Typical millennial absolutionist argument. Anything you don't immediately agree with is just someone trolling you. Absolutely no room for discussion or discourse. And certainly no way in hell you're ever going to let yourself be convinced that your internal reality could possibly be off. Not unexpected considering your only outlet for interpersonal social engagement has been the internet.
You can tap the "unlike" button all you want, it isn't an argument.

If you have an opinion and want to rationally support that position through dialog, do it. It won't hurt you.
Ok I'm going to give it a try.

I argued that back in Starcraft ONE (I didn't mention the ONE but I thought it was obvious, mb) there was already a ladder system and its purpose was to enable people to have somewhat fair matches (obviously right?). I also made a joke about "age" since I'm 33 and have been playing videogames forever and that's since ... the beginning of videogames so your argument about me being too young to understand felt very silly.
To that you answer : I played Starcraft 2 at MGL in 2011. That's trolling.

Then you argue that ladder is just like a tournament with ... idk
Then you go down the aggressive personal attack path again on some meaningless arrogant and condescending crusade ...

Yeah that's all trolling to me especially since it's all being an argument in favor of a matchmaker that actually wouldn't try to make balanced matches (cause that's what you are pushing for in the 1st place right ?).
THANK YOU FOR OWNING SOLOS INTO TEAM LEAGUE FOR NEXT SEASON

Fixed
Allowing solo queue TL might have to do with allowing 4 people teams to queue. Also, it might be easier to meet new teamates who are also interested in ranked play. We will see.
Honestly a smart move blizzard that is only going to improve the game. Thank you.


How?
09/21/2018 04:16 AMPosted by zenasprime
09/21/2018 03:55 AMPosted by Echo
Why would anyone want to knowingly solo queue into teams? So what now i can enjoy the frustration of facing a coordinated team and have my own team mass report me if we disagree on a strat or a pick or a call or anything else really. I will stick with HL for solo queue.


If you solo queue in Team League you should be following the groups lead.


So why would i want to play a game mode that I'm not allowed to make my own decisions without fear of being mass reported and banned?
09/21/2018 01:11 AMPosted by Shadow
I don't understand the point of it. Isn't team league about multiple people queuing together? Hero league is for the solo queue

There is no point to it. All it does is allow for groups of 4 to queue together or for the matchmaker to allow two groups of twos.

The reasoning for the change has nothing to do with players wanting to solo queue for Team League and everything to do with lowering queue times.

Nobody takes Team League seriously now, I doubt that will change in the future.

I guess what it will do is remove the annoyance of having to find another person to do 10 games for the basic seasonal mount.
09/21/2018 04:32 AMPosted by Creeper
I would like to have a mode where players can only queue as a full 5man group, in a way that they have to submit their team so players can't play in different teams during a season.


That is how Team league was when the game first came out... and it didn't work well at all.

The flaw was that if any one of your 5 players couldn't be on at that particular time, you couldn't play team league, leading to lots of player frustration at not being able to play.

And of course the counter argument to that is: Let teams have Subs.

But then what do the Subs do when the entire team IS there, and because of the rules you listed, players can only be on one team? So as long as the entire team was there the Subs didn't get to play TL.
"Why blizzard why are you having a bunch of random facing a 5 stack in team league this is un fair" I bet you a hundred bucks we will see that comment here within two weeks of this happening.

It's called team leauge not solo leauge.
MODES: Duel, Brawl, Battle, Hero League.

DUEL: 1 lane. 1v1. Can text and voice chat with the enemy.
Rank MMR Role or account level are not important, you get placed randomly.
Focuses on learning all Heroes, their weaknesses and strenghts from each other, how to counter talents and spells, and how to use your CDs against specific Heroes.
When you kill the enemy, the player that died has 30 seconds to select a different Hero that may encounter the other Hero or his style. The player that had the kill doesn't know what Hero his enemy chose, so this time he will be on defense, while the other player will be chasing. If the player that got the first kill, the one that was being chased this time gets the kill again, meaning that he has killed twice his enemy and the second kill was a hero that was chosen to counter him, then this player will be able to change Hero and the player that has been killed twice will also be able to change Hero. At this time, players will be able to select 2 talents. And the same mechanic will apply for the next 2 kills, the player that kills will get locked on his hero while the other can change. The fourth round will be the locked hero and the player that died on the 3rd round that is trying to counter his enemy. If the locked Hero that is being chased and countered gets the kill, and if this player is the one that also got the kill on the 2nd round, it means that he has won the 2nd and 4th round when he was being chased and countered. The fifth round the players will only be able to choose the Heroes that they have chosen in their past rounds, this will reduce the randomness and they will try to counter what they think the other player will choose, which they already have knowledge about. For example, if someone saw that the enemy was bad or good with a hero and how the enemy played. This will make players think about expectations and try to counter those expectations and also add element of surprise and satisfaction in case that they chose right or that their tactic failed.
The first round gives you talent level 1. Second round gives you talent level 4. Third round gives you talent level 7. Fourth round gives you Heroic level 10. Fifth round players have stats of level 30 and talents open to level 20. So fifth round is very exciting because you have all talents and different build, and you are down to only the heroes you have played, and players feel like they will get one shotted but also have the power to one-shot.
At the end of the duel, it asks you if you want to fight with the same player again, if both say yes, you fight, if one says no, it searches for a new player, if there's no players you fight the same player.
BRAWL: 2 lanes. 6v6. Queue as group of 3. Each team has 2 groups. Can't talk to the enemy.
With the already good system that Blizzard uses for Brawls. Where you get 3 random Heroes to choose and have a period of time to exchange between them, it is like a draft period. Can only queue as trio. This brawl mode Level and rank is not important and you get placed randomly.
Trios can talk only with their group. And like currently, there will be always a Captain of the group. Captains of both groups only hear and see the voice and text of the 2 players in their group. But Captains will be able to see the text and hear the voice of the other group captain. This brawl mode will focus on team communication and synergy. Not very much on map tactics since there's only 2 lanes. The captain will try to manage his 2 players, and communicate with the captain of the other group. So, the 2 captains will develop a sense of tactics in the map because they will try to create a tactic that will make the 6 players fight together. But also may just focus on the 2 players and play as just a trio. Players will be able to choose to follow or be captains and recruit other 2 players. Since a lot of players play with 1 friend, there will be a lot of pairs. And since there are a lot of people that play alone, they could just find other two players to play, and someone will be the captain.
So, duos of friends may easily find a solo that wants to be leader, or a leader will easily recruit 2 solos. And since you queue as trio, the match maker will easily find another trio. During the "draft" which is the current normal brawl draft, (The one that sometimes gives all the same hero) Players will be able to see the other trio options, and the captains can talk with each other, this will make the communication quick between the six players of one team, because 2 sets of 2 players talk to their respective captain, and the captains communicate with each other about what their group wants to do and such. So this brawl mode will develop communication and skill on leadership and communication and following instructions and playing as group and team. At the end of the match, you are asked if you want to keep playing with the same group.

BATTLE: 3 lanes. 5v5. Can queue solo, pair or trio. Group of 5 players can't queue in this mode.
Rank or MMR or role doesn't matter. Absolute randomness. This way, the matches will pop up quick, and players will play with people of different roles different ranks, but since is absolutely random at all times, there will never be issues that would last long, since the player will, for example, have to carry new players sometimes, but also may get Masters on his games, so he will feel that he is also getting benefits from this randomness. Also, this may give players really really quick matches, or very very long matches where none of the teams can win. This mode is similar to current Quickmatch.

HERO LEAGUE: Similar to Team League, only teams of 5 can queue.

It would be cool to make Battle mode (Quickmatch) to have the ranks, like Bronze, Silver, etc. And the Hero League into a full ladder, or at least show a ladder where the top players are fighting for the Master and Grand Master ranks. And to have Hero League teams of 5 to be like the Arena Team system from World of Warcraft.
09/21/2018 08:26 AMPosted by GGGLHF
I argued that back in Starcraft ONE (I didn't mention the ONE but I thought it was obvious, mb) there was already a ladder system and its purpose was to enable people to have somewhat fair matches (obviously right?).


The Ladder in SC1 didn't match you up with other players based on some notion of "fairness". If you won a game against an evenly rated players you got x points. If you wont a game against a player rated higher than you you got x+ points. If you won a game against a player lower rated than you you got x- points.

This is how many ladders in competitive online multiplayer games worked at that time. TrueSkill wasn't released until the mid 2000s, and even then the paradigm behind how it worked didn't become more widespread until the late 2000s. Even then, it was well known that match making for team games was, despite the marketing BS, a difficult problem to solve. Match making that maintains player engagement is even more so (as we can so melodramatically see every single day on every team game's forums).

09/21/2018 08:26 AMPosted by GGGLHF
I also made a joke about "age" since I'm 33 and have been playing videogames forever and that's since ... the beginning of videogames so your argument about me being too young to understand felt very silly.


In the mid to late 90s when competitive gaming was first emerging, and those of us who were old enough (>20 yo) to play in a more serious competitive manner, were quite capable of having fun despite the playing field not being completely level (and sterile). You weren't really an adult until the late 2000s, when these "fairness" systems started to become more popular in competitive game ladders. As a result, your entire world view of the more serious competitive gaming exists entirely within this framework of "fairness" in player matching.

Sure, you were playing with your N64, Playstation, and maybe even some SC1 when you are 11 years old, but seriously, do you really think that your 11 year old self was capable of being able to discover the nuances of competitive game play at that early age? No, you weren't. Day9, who was around the same age as you when SC1 was released, has some really good stories about how naive of a player he was back then. I have no doubt you weren't much different.

09/21/2018 08:26 AMPosted by GGGLHF
To that you answer : I played Starcraft 2 at MGL in 2011. That's trolling.


You suggest that "I was playing Starcraft when I was 11" which to me is irrelevant when talking about competitive games. Your competitive experience is completely colored by your ignorance of youth. That I played in an MLG tournament, and that I was an mature adult when I did so, indicates that I at least have a base knowledge to talk about the experience in a meaningful way. So when I go on further to say things like "a competitive ladder is a tournament" I'm not just speaking out of my butt about it.

09/21/2018 08:26 AMPosted by GGGLHF
Then you go down the aggressive personal attack path again on some meaningless arrogant and condescending crusade ...


It's not a personal attack. It's an observation. It's a well documented phenomenon despite the fact that you may not feel comfortable being labeled thusly. In general, your generation suffers from a lack of experience in dealing with adversary, and as such, you find it incredibly difficult to deal with situations that you do not perceive as "fair". The world isn't fair and those of us who grew up a few years before the advent of helicopter parenting aren't so afraid of facing down the odds. We were allowed to go out into the scary world and face the danger of it with the curiosity that children should be afforded the opportunity to experience. We learned that there are forces in the world that are stronger than us, and through these experience of having to face those forces, we've become stronger.

So no, I don't care if I'm in a game with a wide range of players, all who have differing skills. It doesn't bother me to be in a game against a vastly superior opponent BECAUSE even if I lose the game, I've gained the experience needed to improve myself over time. If you don't see the value in that, well maybe you need to be just a little bit angry at your parent for always being there to make sure life was "fair" for you.

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