Why is Blizz destroying Summoners?

General Discussion
Dear Blizz

Long time player here. I like to play summoner heroes mostly, my number 1 being Abby. Maybe over the last year and a half I've noticed a trend towards destroying summoners and what makes them special. I know Nazeebo and Zagara are technically "stronger" than they were but now they just feel boring to play imo and that's fine, there's plenty of characters I can play. However Xul is then changed to be less of a summoner and most recently Azmodan is changed to focus on his globe and he feels boring now, my 2nd most played! Then I realize you haven't released a summoner since Xul. I'm sorry but have I done something to offend you? Did I accidentally run over your cat? In which case I'm sorry, and we can work this out like adults rather than removing what I like about your game. Or do I have to look forward to playing Abby as a support or something?

Cheers,
Borra
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.
I'm a huge summoner fan as well, that's what kept me playing World of Warcraft, Warcraft 3, Diablo's Necromancer & Witch Doctor, Zerg from SC2, Overwatch Torbjorn and everything else having consider pets/temporary summon mechanics.

The category is already small enough in HOTS and they're removing what was sometimes fun from time to time, but what do I know? :p
09/19/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Nino
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.


To me that's like removing healers because they make it difficult to kill people.
09/19/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Nino
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.


Which is part of their power.....
09/19/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Werbs713
09/19/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Nino
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.


Which is part of their power.....


It's not interactive gameplay though, you either have !@#$ arbitrarily blocking shots because it's just all over the place and there's a lot of it , cluttering the field of view or you have AI that basically just sticks to you. It's just not fun to play against.
Maybe ask this in the AMA that's currently ongoing in Reddit? (if you haven't already, I mean).

It's about balance, but also design in general, so I think this question applies.
09/19/2018 10:56 AMPosted by Dajinn
09/19/2018 10:46 AMPosted by Werbs713
...

Which is part of their power.....


It's not interactive gameplay though, you either have !@#$ arbitrarily blocking shots because it's just all over the place and there's a lot of it , cluttering the field of view or you have AI that basically just sticks to you. It's just not fun to play against.
-_-
09/19/2018 10:56 AMPosted by Dajinn
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Which is part of their power.....


It's not interactive gameplay though, you either have !@#$ arbitrarily blocking shots because it's just all over the place and there's a lot of it , cluttering the field of view or you have AI that basically just sticks to you. It's just not fun to play against.


It's not fun to play against burst heroes who can take away half your health in a sec, Its not fun to get stunned for an entire team fight, it's not fun to be slowed to oblivion. How is summoning units so much worse or less interactive?
09/19/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Nino
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.


I remember reading the "clutter" comment as well but i think they were more concerned with how 'taxing' the clutter was on the system.

They referenced if you had like Zag, Xul, Naz, Azmo and who ever else on say Braxxis with a full Zerg wave the system would run noticeably slower and is flat out unplayable for some, while trying to process the sheer volume of polygons, AI and such on screen.
09/19/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Nino
As far as I read, they think summons clatter the screen too much and make it difficult to hit skillshots.


This is smarter than it sounds.
Summoners are incredibly hard to balance. If you make a summoner like arthas that can just block all skillshots and thus receive tankiness beyond imagination it is really dificult to make the hero viable with the other ulti. There is a reason other mobas have 1 ulti per hero and overwatch has 1 ulti per hero. Balancing a game around 2 ultis is extremely hard.

If hots only had 1 ulti for each hero we could see more summoners.

I know that 90% who read this will not understand but its the reason u can trust me.
Unless it is controlling 3 /4 summons à la rexxar or samuro/tlv , full summoning and/afk letting my summons do everything is a dumb concept.
Having 1/2 summon and have the rest as active skills is better.
You may disagree but if the playerbase found dodging chromie from afar not being interactive i can have the same legit argument for a full summoner.
09/19/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Borra
Then I realize you haven't released a summoner since Xul.


I'm not sure how you classify a "summoner". Cause since Xul we have had Probius (photon cannon, comparable with Gazlowe being a summoner) and Samuro (clones). Samuro does revolve around his summons.

but anyhoo, I do agree Blizz has diverting power from summons and split push more towards teamfight.
09/19/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Borra
Dear Blizz

Long time player here. I like to play summoner heroes mostly, my number 1 being Abby. Maybe over the last year and a half I've noticed a trend towards destroying summoners and what makes them special. I know Nazeebo and Zagara are technically "stronger" than they were but now they just feel boring to play imo and that's fine, there's plenty of characters I can play. However Xul is then changed to be less of a summoner and most recently Azmodan is changed to focus on his globe and he feels boring now, my 2nd most played! Then I realize you haven't released a summoner since Xul. I'm sorry but have I done something to offend you? Did I accidentally run over your cat? In which case I'm sorry, and we can work this out like adults rather than removing what I like about your game. Or do I have to look forward to playing Abby as a support or something?

Cheers,
Borra

Since the new dirrector , all summoners/ specialist of the game are being reviewed and changed . some litterally called it the war on specialist since they said blizz is going to remove thw class entirely and change it for assassins. If say its most likely soon-ish since all hero description have had the term specialist removed . saddly i think its a matter of time before specialists are no more.
09/19/2018 11:08 AMPosted by MacWeak
Unless it is controlling 3 /4 summons à la rexxar or samuro/tlv , full summoning and/afk letting my summons do everything is a dumb concept.
Having 1/2 summon and have the rest as active skills is better.
You may disagree but if the playerbase found dodging chromie from afar not being interactive i can have the same legit argument for a full summoner.
2 times "boring" in OP and I wonder whats so fun about "click&forget" playstyle.
09/19/2018 11:14 AMPosted by LouieKaboom
09/19/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Borra
Then I realize you haven't released a summoner since Xul.


I'm not sure how you classify a "summoner". Cause since Xul we have had Probius (photon cannon, comparable with Gazlowe being a summoner) and Samuro (clones). Samuro does revolve around his summons.

but anyhoo, I do agree Blizz has diverting power from summons and split push more towards teamfight.


Split push summoners is more accurate of a term.
I don't mind them pushing away from split pushing summoners, but I do mind that they don't make summons useful in teamfights.

For example, probius turret build is just terrible, unless you are getting fights longer than 20 seconds you are never going to summon more than one turret for that build and they are easily stopped by any mage throwing a spell at your pylons. You do not summon anything in a teamfight with xul unless it is in lane, zags summons are geared towards splitpushing until 13/16 (while sure they're a good portion of her damage I'd argue that they're still for lane dynamics more than anything else), gazlowe is probably the only one that actually uses his summons for moderate damage but most of his value is the grav bombs and stuns and area denial, almost none of it comes from the turrets themselves. Nazeebo summons walls and one garry, that's probably the closest to a good summoner we have.

Azmodan is the most prominent "summoner" and almost none of his value actually comes from summoning. He does throw the once in awhile demon to block a skillshot every 10 seconds and does put a demon in a lane to push it slightly, but beyond that, it's all orbs and long range waveclear. The summons do almost none of the work.
Zagaras summons have been buffed a while ago and are much better.
Azmodan is the most prominent "summoner" and almost none of his value actually comes from summoning. He does throw the once in awhile demon to block a skillshot every 10 seconds and does put a demon in a lane to push it slightly, but beyond that, it's all orbs and long range waveclear. The summons do almost none of the work.

I guess thats why "summons" talents are the most popular in their tiers?
/s
Its crap what they did to Xul... can you think of a more iconic summoner in ANY GAME than the necromancer in Diablo 2?

What does Blizzard do? Destroy his summoning build and replace it with a scythe build which he didn't even use in diablo 2!

(Xul is the Diablo 2 necro per Heroes wiki )"Xul was the necromancer in the group of heroes who battled Diablo and his brethren during the events of Diablo II"
09/19/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Borra
Dear Blizz

Long time player here. I like to play summoner heroes mostly, my number 1 being Abby. Maybe over the last year and a half I've noticed a trend towards destroying summoners and what makes them special. I know Nazeebo and Zagara are technically "stronger" than they were but now they just feel boring to play imo and that's fine, there's plenty of characters I can play. However Xul is then changed to be less of a summoner and most recently Azmodan is changed to focus on his globe and he feels boring now, my 2nd most played! Then I realize you haven't released a summoner since Xul. I'm sorry but have I done something to offend you? Did I accidentally run over your cat? In which case I'm sorry, and we can work this out like adults rather than removing what I like about your game. Or do I have to look forward to playing Abby as a support or something?

Cheers,
Borra


Sorry, game is about teamfights and epic 5 kill streaks now. Abathur is now a Tank. - Blizzard.

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