In-depth discussion on Genji's state

General Discussion
09/26/2018 07:47 PMPosted by robertsonb
Great thread; interesting read.

I'm interested to hear your views on this question:

Illidan and genji have similar win rates and role (a backline diver). However, if a good illidan player dominates, why is he commended for his skill (even by the enemy team), yet if genji performs well people get upset and deem him a BS broken hero?

I find Zeratul to be in the same boat as illidan in terms of acceptance. Do you get mad when you're on the receiving end of good zera play?


Illidan's cooldowns are as low as how consistently he can auto-attack. He can obliterate teams by himself, no matter how much health they may have... Constant Fiery activates+Battered procs will make his AA go for insane numbers... If left alone.

Thing is... on a regular comp (tank+supp+fill.assassin/Spec/Bruiser) there are blinds/roots/stuns/displaces etc everywhere. And each one of them is enough to stop Illidan from AA'ing for a good 1.5-3s. Not only his damage, but his survivability AND MOBILITY are tied to how much he can auto-attack: As Laparo stated above, "He's pure offensive". If he can't, he will mostly die quickly and won't be able to escape.

Illidan has no burst too, so there's no "dropping the bomb and running", you have to weave between targets to keep your steady damage going, resetting your cooldowns and juking skillshots. His Evasion, unless talented, does squat for ability damage... so a stray Flamestrike is no joking matter for that tiny health pool. Against Illidan there's plenty of time to arrange a Blind or any other CC, as well as shield the ally, yank them away... You can react offensively and defensively. ANYONE CAN DO SOMETHING TO HELP a mage being assailed by Illidan...

Illidan is in constant danger and pressure with no room for error.

Like Artanis and Butcher, to a lesser degree, if you get into a fight, you have to commit to the end. You die or you kill... which is why Illidans tend to feed a lot: they fail to calculate the outcome of the engage. Once they die a few times like this there's the psychological backlash<strong/> too! They will be less confident to dive and give more space for squishies to play.

Unlike Genji, who's always ready to E/D/R Away or endure the assault with W. He has killing potential, but more than that: too much leeway for error. That's where the "cheated" feeling stems from.
Good thread, but getting rid of genji ranged AA is a hard handicap and wouldn't feel right since that he can throw his shuriken's in overwatch. And to be fair his deflect is already a nerfed version of his original. Regarding his deflect he should be able to be hurt aoe damage and getting stunned during deflect should cancel the deflects duration if it already dosent do so
Aforementioned Zeratul is actually a strong hero vs Genji.

All dive heroes require the same forced reaction in order to save the dive target. The team must change focus to the diver and force them to use their defense or they must retreat/die. All of them have at least one or two defensive abilities and mobility that with skill can be used for def or attack.

How you deal with Genji is no different than Tracer, Zeratul, Illidan or any other dive. CC, and doing what you can to protect the dive target during the small window in which they have killing potential. If you disrupt their dive, they can't finish.

Vs single target pressure the name of the game has always been prediction/anticipation and quick reaction. A single stun or root can lead to their demise. Genji of all the dive is the most skillshot dependent. He only has good burst if he can land ALL the skillshots in a row, including close range shotgun Q, X-strike, and of course SS.

The only change to Genji i could justify is to reduce his AA poke capabilities. Making it a single attack and slightly reducing total dmg would mean talents like block/blind/armor would be more effective, allowing player choice for further mitigation.
The reality is the quality of this game would improve dramatically if they deleted all OW heroes.
09/27/2018 10:44 AMPosted by VampireDovah
Good thread, but getting rid of genji ranged AA is a hard handicap and wouldn't feel right since that he can throw his shuriken's in overwatch. And to be fair his deflect is already a nerfed version of his original. Regarding his deflect he should be able to be hurt aoe damage and getting stunned during deflect should cancel the deflects duration if it already dosent do so


I've not played Overwatch but it makes perfect sense that it should be different because it's 2 completely different games.

Kel'thuzads original Frost Nova was a point and click ability that at rank 3 was cappable to almost oneshot many casters/ranged troops that were too tightly grouped. The CD was also quite short and if you didn't spread your casters they would easily be destroyed in the second cast. I personally found this mostly an issue in Priest/Sorc or Archer heavy armies.

Which makes me think it's not unrealistic to say that Genji should work more coherently with a moba compared to an FPS. The same reason Artanis doesn't have a revive on death passive in HotS.

09/27/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Mace
How you deal with Genji is no different than Tracer, Zeratul, Illidan or any other dive. CC, and doing what you can to protect the dive target during the small window in which they have killing potential. If you disrupt their dive, they can't finish.


This is not entirely fair at all. Illidan and Zeratul are both designed with responsive drawbacks in mind. Accounting for player error and opponents ability to respond to what they do where as Genji is not locked into a very aggressive/defensive playstyle, he's too versatile.

09/27/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Mace
Vs single target pressure the name of the game has always been prediction/anticipation and quick reaction. A single stun or root can lead to their demise. Genji of all the dive is the most skillshot dependent. He only has good burst if he can land ALL the skillshots in a row, including close range shotgun Q, X-strike, and of course SS.


This is also not entirely true either. Given your examples Zeratul's W build is much more reliant on skillshots as Swift Strike is virtually impossible to miss since the ability lacks counterplay in terms of reactivity - You have to exclusively predict it which is not present in others like Kerrigan, Zeratul or Illidan.
It's one thing to react to what your opponent is doing which is perfectly fine but prediction requires you to have a large amount of knowledge in the matchup which isn't nearly as prevelant in other heroes. I've many times predicted Genji's E with Maiev's vault, so I don't speak of this as an issue for me but rather that it's not a good design as expected counterplay.

His Q is also a fairly easy ability to learn how to land due to his stutterstepping being more mobile than most other heroes and his Swift Strike placing him directly where he wants to be.
X-Strike is also an ability that relies more on your ability to quickly place it down in the right direction rather than a traditional skillshot. This ability also has no reactionary counterplay to the first hit which guarantees damage, however the second hit which is still stronger does have a short delay. I wouldn't classify this as harder than Seeker in the Dark or a Kerrigan combo because those abilities are a lot more telegraphed to the opponent.

09/27/2018 01:10 PMPosted by c4ution
The reality is the quality of this game would improve dramatically if they deleted all OW heroes.


Not nessecarily. The OW heroes themselves aren't HotS problem but rather how much stronger their baseline kits are compared to many of the other heroes.

Tracer and Genji are the most notorious offenders to this and this is mainly because most of the roster is terrible at dealing with mobility since we lack zooning tools on heroes that aren't warriors who already don't care about either of them.

We could flip it around and say that Kael'thas has Blazing Speed and Cauterizing Blink and that would be just as obnoxious to deal with as the OW offenders. Valeera could have the original incarnation of Cheat Death and Malfurion could turn into a Tree of Life with 75 armor.

If you give a character personal ways to circumvent their own weaknesses they will come across as incredibly annoying to deal with that feels like nothing but a chore.
09/27/2018 04:37 PMPosted by Laparo
09/27/2018 10:44 AMPosted by VampireDovah
Good thread, but getting rid of genji ranged AA is a hard handicap and wouldn't feel right since that he can throw his shuriken's in overwatch. And to be fair his deflect is already a nerfed version of his original. Regarding his deflect he should be able to be hurt aoe damage and getting stunned during deflect should cancel the deflects duration if it already dosent do so


I've not played Overwatch but it makes perfect sense that it should be different because it's 2 completely different games.

Kel'thuzads original Frost Nova was a point and click ability that at rank 3 was cappable to almost oneshot many casters/ranged troops that were too tightly grouped. The CD was also quite short and if you didn't spread your casters they would easily be destroyed in the second cast. I personally found this mostly an issue in Priest/Sorc or Archer heavy armies.

Which makes me think it's not unrealistic to say that Genji should work more coherently with a moba compared to an FPS. The same reason Artanis doesn't have a revive on death passive in HotS.

09/27/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Mace
How you deal with Genji is no different than Tracer, Zeratul, Illidan or any other dive. CC, and doing what you can to protect the dive target during the small window in which they have killing potential. If you disrupt their dive, they can't finish.


This is not entirely fair at all. Illidan and Zeratul are both designed with responsive drawbacks in mind. Accounting for player error and opponents ability to respond to what they do where as Genji is not locked into a very aggressive/defensive playstyle, he's too versatile.

09/27/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Mace
Vs single target pressure the name of the game has always been prediction/anticipation and quick reaction. A single stun or root can lead to their demise. Genji of all the dive is the most skillshot dependent. He only has good burst if he can land ALL the skillshots in a row, including close range shotgun Q, X-strike, and of course SS.


This is also not entirely true either. Given your examples Zeratul's W build is much more reliant on skillshots as Swift Strike is virtually impossible to miss since the ability lacks counterplay in terms of reactivity - You have to exclusively predict it which is not present in others like Kerrigan, Zeratul or Illidan.
It's one thing to react to what your opponent is doing which is perfectly fine but prediction requires you to have a large amount of knowledge in the matchup which isn't nearly as prevelant in other heroes. I've many times predicted Genji's E with Maiev's vault, so I don't speak of this as an issue for me but rather that it's not a good design as expected counterplay.

His Q is also a fairly easy ability to learn how to land due to his stutterstepping being more mobile than most other heroes and his Swift Strike placing him directly where he wants to be.
X-Strike is also an ability that relies more on your ability to quickly place it down in the right direction rather than a traditional skillshot. This ability also has no reactionary counterplay to the first hit which guarantees damage, however the second hit which is still stronger does have a short delay. I wouldn't classify this as harder than Seeker in the Dark or a Kerrigan combo because those abilities are a lot more telegraphed to the opponent.

09/27/2018 01:10 PMPosted by c4ution
The reality is the quality of this game would improve dramatically if they deleted all OW heroes.


Not nessecarily. The OW heroes themselves aren't HotS problem but rather how much stronger their baseline kits are compared to many of the other heroes.

Tracer and Genji are the most notorious offenders to this and this is mainly because most of the roster is terrible at dealing with mobility since we lack zooning tools on heroes that aren't warriors who already don't care about either of them.

We could flip it around and say that Kael'thas has Blazing Speed and Cauterizing Blink and that would be just as obnoxious to deal with as the OW offenders. Valeera could have the original incarnation of Cheat Death and Malfurion could turn into a Tree of Life with 75 armor.

If you give a character personal ways to circumvent their own weaknesses they will come across as incredibly annoying to deal with that feels like nothing but a chore.


Zeratul absolutely functions the same, often using some form of blink to gap close from stealth, cleave, aa and then blink out all within seconds.

When I speak of anticipation, im not talking about trying to counter specific abilities like SS (can be done but difficult, seen malf root do it best) but im talking about knowing who the dive target will be and reacting accordingly. Best thing to do is watch for the dive, then save the target with peels/cc or healing. If a single SS would kill the target, then things have already gone poorly.

Landing point blank tripple Q is easy against Azmo...not so against smaller targets like li-ming or chromie. Same with X strike.

Unlike Zera, Keri, or Illidan, Genji has no sustain, wave clear or camp ability.
Damage done to him sticks. His only defense is avoidance. Which he can do better than others so id call that a trade off.

Reducing his poke slightly would mean he is even more reliant on his allies to damage targets into his killing zone. Making his AA more susceptible to block would do this.
09/27/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Mace
Zeratul absolutely functions the same, often using some form of blink to gap close from stealth, cleave, aa and then blink out all within seconds.


That is fair. Zeratul's Cleave build does lack responsive counterplay but the build is mainly used because his other alternatives are underpowered. This build also is more poke oriented so I wouldn't mind this if it was worse in teamfights, unfortunatly it also outperforms W build in teamfights.

09/27/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Mace
Unlike Zera, Keri, or Illidan, Genji has no sustain, wave clear or camp ability.
Damage done to him sticks. His only defense is avoidance. Which he can do better than others so id call that a trade off.

Reducing his poke slightly would mean he is even more reliant on his allies to damage targets into his killing zone. Making his AA more susceptible to block would do this.


For the first paragraph I want to stress that none of those heroes role is to solo camps consistently. Illidan does it because his overall kit is incredibly poor unless he has extreme levels of backup, but often enough he's a liability in teamfights compared to other melee assassins.
Kerrigan also isn't known for exceptional strong sustain nor her ability to solo bruiser camps.
Same goes for Zeratul and his sustain is locked until level 13.
None of them has great waveclear. Kerrigan and Zeratul can spend their combos but they waste a lot of mana doing so. Illidan's clear is on par with Genji if he uses Swift Strike on an incoming minion wave.
All 4 heroes can, just like any hero in the game, solo giant merc camps after their AA was nerfed to being dodgeable.
Lack of sustain is not a very potent weakness, just like it isn't a very strong strength either. Illidan's sustain is probably the best over time and yet he still doesn't see play despite it working very well with his kit. Genji and Maiev both lack sustain completely yet they are really strong with their kits working coherently.
Sustain is typically not a big deal because in ranked settings there's always a healer present that nullifies this weakness.

For the second paragraph Genji isn't reliant whatsoever on his allies to do damage which is a great misconception with this character. He takes the spotlight because he tends to always be the one to finish a kill but he's incredibly good at poking and creating kills. Some help for this would be as you say reduce his numbers of AA's to 1 like most other heroes so block is more of a counter to him.

I think what you say makes sense and I can understand it yet I think it's unfair to say that Genji has a fair tradeoff compared to Kerrigan, Zeratul or Illidan. Since I've not played as of patch day I don't know how strong Kerrigans rework is. Judging by Hotslogs it appears to be pretty strong at 28% popularity and 54% winrate. However before the patch she was an abysmal melee assassin. Zeratul only sees play because VP is an amazing heroic and Cleave is both the easiest and strongest option currently. I've not seen Illidan in a long time now which I think says enough about his strength where as Genji is picked/banned in every game.
09/27/2018 08:20 PMPosted by Mace
Zeratul absolutely functions the same, often using some form of blink to gap close from stealth, cleave, aa and then blink out all within seconds.


Yeah, and will be murdered afterwards since he's a slow slob, unless he crosses terrain against a team with no one that can cross terrain. Genji, on the other hand will just zing-zing 2 screens away despite of the terrain/structures/bosses along the way (not that he HAS TO, since he can pretty much stay in 5.5 range and keep poking... no one will catch him).

09/28/2018 04:15 AMPosted by Laparo
I don't know how strong Kerrigans rework is.


Pretty strong, but she needs HEAVY SUPPORT. She's the all-in kind of melee, unless she can Ravage a minion back to safety.

09/27/2018 12:04 PMPosted by Mace
Vs single target pressure the name of the game has always been prediction/anticipation and quick reaction.


Swift strike is pretty much a point+click teleport coupled with piercing damage! Say you're in the poke battles for an obj and a stray Chromie skill shot puts your Mage on the 30% health range, which starts to waddle away to recover.

Time for some Genji Zing-Zing.

Your team now has to escort the Mage to/until safety and lose the Obj altogether or keep fighting and risk some Mugen Ken (or whatever) deleting said mage for free. Mada-mada, dear Mace.

Illidan or Zeratul have zero chances to survive the dive to kill that Mage, while Kerrigan won't get there in time, unless she's already in the fray and hasn't died (the TF is won anyway). Their threat radius is much smaller than Genji, and way, WAY MORE OBVIOUS.

"Youuuuu are not prepared" = Illidan be here in 2s.
*A wild mounted translucent shade goes straight for the mage... in 2-4 seconds.*
What if his E only did damage for the second half of the skill shot?
Sort of like the level 4 talent, so he needs to have some distance to his target to get E hits in. Would be an interesting dynamic with his shuriken.
I agree with whats been said about Illidan, he suffers from needing frequent up time on target to sustain his kit. He is definitely the weakest dive right now and only shines when 2 or more heroes are investing support for him. More an issue with his kit being out dated.

Other points about Genji's range of influence is also accurate, he can keep pressure on teams from outside most fight areas, which is why I think reducing his poke will help by forcing him to play more aggressively.

I think his ability damage is acceptable, and slightly reducing his AA effectiveness somehow would put more pressure on Genji to accurately land his abilities.

Again im ok with SS both in damage and range. Same with his other abilities. I have no issue with deflect, just as I have no issue with maive or varian or tass having an invuln (at least there is SOME counter play to deflect)

Also to further cement his specific role as finisher assasin, i would be accepting of further dmg reduction vs non heroes. As he is, its painful to wave clear, but reducing Q dmg on non heroes would make him very pitiful vs map play, and im ok with that.

Other dive heroes clear waves MUCH faster, since they have potent and consistent aoe. Keri before rework could cleave, or use Q build to murder waves without other abilities. In lane sustain is not the most important aspect of their kits, but it does allow them the freedom to roam or lane without healing support.

I think people underestimate how important it is to pressure Genji with damage. His low hp and lack of healing means it all sticks. Sure a support can top him off, but thats valuable cd and resource being used where others may not have needed it in the first place.

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