Whitemane's ults...

General Discussion
Any idea why the vastly superior scarlet aegis has a considerably lower cooldown than the highly situational divine reckoning?

60 seconds vs 100 seconds.

Free zeal for your entire team, and a base heal, and armor

VS

Damage. You have to manually apply zeal to those you want to heal, so you are gonna lose a bunch of mana in the process, whereas aegis does it for free.

There's never a reason to go for reckoning. Cooldowns should be seriously swapped.
gonna keep endlessly bumping lol
i still need answers
You don't give up easily do you?
nope
Because doing damage to the enemy team lets you heal your team. By the way, the 'vastly superior' Scarlet Aegis wins less game right now than the 'highly situational' Divine Reckoning. Maybe you should learn the hero before talking?
10/01/2018 01:12 AMPosted by Boo
Because doing damage to the enemy team lets you heal your team. By the way, the 'vastly superior' Scarlet Aegis wins less game right now than the 'highly situational' Divine Reckoning. Maybe you should learn the hero before talking?

You can only heal those that you Q. Are you going to Q all 5 of your teammates? You'll have zero mana afterwards.

Aegis lets you zeal everyone, on top of a base heal and armor (your heals have more effective HP).

So we have Divine Reckoning, dealing a whole 400 damage and healing at best 3 of your teammates (possibly including you) for 400 health per enemy hero. Now, how many enemy heroes will sit on it? Unreliable damage and it has 100 seconds cd!

Aegis gives you 250 health straight up (to whitemane as well), zeal and 40 armor for 4 seconds. Meaning that any healing you do in those 4 seconds will basically be 40% more effective, and affect your entire team too.

I don't believe win rates are the ultimate "i win this argument" factor. But you do you.
Do we look like the game Devs to you? How are we supposed to know?
If you really want to know, the only answer for this question is 42.
When in doubt 42! :D
10/01/2018 01:37 AMPosted by Reported
10/01/2018 01:12 AMPosted by Boo
Because doing damage to the enemy team lets you heal your team. By the way, the 'vastly superior' Scarlet Aegis wins less game right now than the 'highly situational' Divine Reckoning. Maybe you should learn the hero before talking?

You can only heal those that you Q. Are you going to Q all 5 of your teammates? You'll have zero mana afterwards.

Aegis lets you zeal everyone, on top of a base heal and armor (your heals have more effective HP).

So we have Divine Reckoning, dealing a whole 400 damage and healing at best 3 of your teammates (possibly including you) for 400 health per enemy hero. Now, how many enemy heroes will sit on it? Unreliable damage and it has 100 seconds cd!

Aegis gives you 250 health straight up (to whitemane as well), zeal and 40 armor for 4 seconds. Meaning that any healing you do in those 4 seconds will basically be 40% more effective, and affect your entire team too.

I don't believe win rates are the ultimate "i win this argument" factor. But you do you.
I mean, if you want to forget that High Inquisitor and Zealous Spirit exists, sure. Armor does negate damage, but does it give more healing? Not really, but it does give more effecitve HP, which is good. You're also forgetting Reckoning is AoE, it can hit multiple people, and does often when played well.

If there is one oth er thing, you're also comparing an ultimate that counters full dive to your team that should dive with that ultimate. Apples and Oranges.
09/30/2018 11:34 PMPosted by Reported
VS

Damage.
There's your answer in and of itself. A Ton of noobs go for damage when the healing could better support their team... But they don't give a #$%&, they just want to shoot fire at the enemy, and score kills.
10/01/2018 01:50 AMPosted by Boo
10/01/2018 01:37 AMPosted by Reported
...
You can only heal those that you Q. Are you going to Q all 5 of your teammates? You'll have zero mana afterwards.

Aegis lets you zeal everyone, on top of a base heal and armor (your heals have more effective HP).

So we have Divine Reckoning, dealing a whole 400 damage and healing at best 3 of your teammates (possibly including you) for 400 health per enemy hero. Now, how many enemy heroes will sit on it? Unreliable damage and it has 100 seconds cd!

Aegis gives you 250 health straight up (to whitemane as well), zeal and 40 armor for 4 seconds. Meaning that any healing you do in those 4 seconds will basically be 40% more effective, and affect your entire team too.

I don't believe win rates are the ultimate "i win this argument" factor. But you do you.
I mean, if you want to forget that High Inquisitor and Zealous Spirit exists, sure. Armor does negate damage, but does it give more healing? Not really, but it does give more effecitve HP, and you're usually dead if you have to use it. You're also forgetting Reckoning is AoE, it can hit multiple people, and does often when played well.

If there is one oth er thing, you're also comparing an ultimate that counters full dive to your team that should dive with that ultimate. Apples and Oranges.

Except you can also dive with aegis. It's very versatile.

Can you dive with reckoning? I mean, if they're fleeing it's not very useful. Neither it is if they are scattered. It's very situational.

I'm not saying it can't be amazing. It sure can be if every condition lines together (narrow spaces, all 5 enemies sit on it, you have zeal up on multiple people preemptively, it happens to be off cd, enemies have no mobility spells, you being alive still with no aegis to counter the dive on you).

I dunno why you're so hellbent on this but whatever. Aegis is the safest choice and the most versatile. I'd be with you if DR had at least 80 seconds cd, or aegis had 70.
Here’s my reasoning. Firstly we need to consider the value of both heroics.
This is completely from my view point of the hero and my reasoning.

aegis More or less is strictly for the armor.
The “group zeal” is a joke personally. Considering the main build on her is W build, you can Q 3 ally’s and W another putting zeal on 4 targets without the use of any mana. And then Q herself for 30 mana tops.
The heal for 250 is a complete joke of a heal. If anything it’s of the same value more or less of her Q. Generally in team fights you will have one target taking massive damage and so that heal isn’t going to do much of anything.
Which leaves the 40 armor which is “you take 40% less damage”. Armor will always have value and thus why this ability is good. If you take the armor component out of the ult and give it a 20 second CD no one would take it because it wouldn’t save any lives.
All that being said and you still need to get your team to stack up to get full value. Have you tried hearding cats? Cause that’s about how well it goes 9/10 times.

Now the other ult
1. Doesn’t require team to stack and YOU can use it when you will get the most value.
2. Heals for every tick of damage it does AOE if set up properly.
3. Does damage - how many kills do you see get away with little to no health? Supports that do damage secure kills, even if they aren’t getting the killing blow.
And lastly which doesn’t count, dealing damage as a support is fun. We don’t need more heal bots in the game.

Considering she can get her own root at 13 and spell power at 7 that ult on one hero with team zeal can out heal the other ult easily. And when used properly in team fights she can fell oppressive because you can’t out damage the healing she does team wide even if she is hitting a single hero.
10/01/2018 02:07 AMPosted by WillG
Here’s my reasoning. Firstly we need to consider the value of both heroics.
This is completely from my view point of the hero and my reasoning.

aegis More or less is strictly for the armor.
The “group zeal” is a joke personally. Considering the main build on her is W build, you can Q 3 ally’s and W another putting zeal on 4 targets without the use of any mana. And then Q herself for 30 mana tops.

[/quote]
Stopped reading here.

Didn't know you had the power to communicate with the enemy team "hey guys, easy with the aoe burst, give me 2 seconds to put Q on each of my teammates then use W on another, don't kill me until I'm done kay?".

Aegis is instant, can be used twice in a drawn out fight, and can effectively save allies way more than DR.

DR is easy to walk out of, requires a lot of setup compared to aegis, will never get full value out of 5 enemies unless you CC wombo combo them but at that point you would have won the fight anyway.

I don't get how people defend this lol. At best both ults can be comparable if they had the same cooldown, but they don't.
If you face a burst dmg comp then the aegis is the better choice but generally Withemane is bad against burst. The cool down is probably lower because enemies can bust someone down quite often and you basically need this heroic if you want to save somebody from burst. Still i would not want to play Withmane against burst comps and this heroic is there when you Firstpick her so you have options to adapt.

Withemane shines if she does not need to save allies from burst. Lets say you have a beefy team and most of your allies have tools against burst dmg then they only need sustained healing (that's basically her strength because she can heal a lot). In this case the dmg-heroic is much better choice because of the team-fight combo potential. It's quite difficult to use: First put 3 Q's on yourself and teammates, then activate the spellpower talent (lvl7) then use R and hit many enemy players, then immediately add your E+W Root combo on top of it (so you can root 1-2 enemies in your R-radius). You can do this as a follow up or even start the engage like this. This feels much more impact-full than Aegis and that's why it has a longer cool down.

Anyway i am not a developer but i just try to think ^^
In structured play her other ult with 20 upgrade carries games

Also the healing her marked targets get through the other ult is crazy
Here's an idea: go to try mode and see what that "damage" can do.

at lvl 10, a spell combo with an emphasis on damage will kill an enemy hero with comparable hp to whitemane. Now sure, at 10 the amount of targets that can just walk out of that is pretty high, so its not "zomg must have!"

Tack on a few levels, get the root & chaining talents and the lvl 20 pull effect (which makes it easy to know exactly where to aim her follow-up spells) and that's enough damage yield to secure at least 2 kills on the enemy team.

On your support.

The higher cd on the damage portion is likely to emphasize the heal/armor aspects of whitemane's builds rather than the meta/popular emphasis to be around building her as a replacement dps and be a liability for allies in solo-support comps that aren't built around whitemane wombo-combo.

Since whitemane heals 100% of the damage she deals, and the risk of setting up her wombo, its not so much that she'd even want to have zeal on her whole team anyway, maybe one target and herself, but the shear numbers can be insane, though the main goal would be more in regards to getting kills and less so on the heal.

*the more you know*
So your not really looking for someone to reason with you. You are just making a statement and your sticking with it so what’s the point of the thread.

Similar to malf you have got to set up your healing before the fight breaks out but I guess that seems a little difficult to you.

And you don’t need to get full value out of DR because it has two different things it’s doing. Damage and healing. If that ult hits one hero for even 2 seconds then you have done the healing aspects on Aegis. Anything longer and you’ve more healing put.
The ult has zoning potential, because most people know how WM heals it will cause chaos in the team for a moment while people are focusing on getting out of it.
It does damage which seems highly underrated for some reason considering that supports that can do damage valuable.

This whole “stopped reading here” stuff is something high schoolers do. If you want a thread to discuss why something is, do it. But if you aren’t willing to argue a point and see both sides just make a thread asking to change it.

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