So, umm, Mephisto

General Discussion
So the best suggestion I've seen here is:
Increase his basic attack damage.
And I think Skull missile needs reduced delay rather than increased damage. Not much of a point from increased damage if it can't hit anything.
I would need to actually pay attention more but probably agree with skull missile logic. When playing against people that aren't trying to pay attention to heroes with resets, I will get off back to back to back to back missiles, and it still kind of feels like I do more with ONE lightning nova. Could be wrong haven't played a ton of games with him, just some cop feels.

I kind of like the AA theorizing but would that just make another Sun Fury Kael'thas? His weakness is people getting into Mephisto's face, and if he could deal with that by just AA'ing someone down, I feel like he would lose more power somewhere else to compensate.
09/29/2018 12:27 AMPosted by Psykout
His weakness is people getting into Mephisto's face, and if he could deal with that by just AA'ing someone down, I feel like he would lose more power somewhere else to compensate.

He is currently underpowered and needs a buff, so perhaps he can get this buff, without losing anything xP
right now his Q is useless , his Lightning nova is almost useless and Consume souls is stronger than it should be.
Good,now they can bring him up without having people moaning at every turn.
Mephisto is still very, very, very strong hero.
The only thing the devs did was to "murder" the "Cookie Cutter" build, that every skilled and not-so-skilled player picked.

The same applied to li ming release. Some famous guy made a guide about picking ess of johan for Li ming and then dumping all the talents to synergize with that build. It was the easiest build to play and admittedly very strong.
This has been an exact similiar case with Mephisto.
Lightning nova and consume souls were the easier skills to use thusly someone semi-famous-internet-persona made a guide about it and then created a talent build that synergized with those abilities.

However, how many of you have played around Skull missile and it's interactions with talents synergizing with that one?
Combined with Durance of hate, pre or post buff. It does not really matter which version. Current buffed one is naturally even better.

I would just like to say this. I've been playing with Mephisto since release and before these current nerfs, the Skull Missile (Q Build) had a stronger impact when played well but it was for the majority of players easier to be impactful with the lightning nova + consume souls build, since the skill needed to devastate the opposing team was much, much lower.

Tip for everyone who are not familiar with mephisto's talent interactions:

Level 1: Unyielding power:
This talent makes your Skull missile a very strong poke ability. But that is not the most important factor.
These are the important ones:
Level 4: Hateful mending (heals for 50% of Q:s damage dealt) makes you a monster sustainer in combats, pretty much as durable as the prenerf lightning nova + static barrier combo.
Unyielding power boosts this ability by a large margin, because 100 damage per hero hit is relatively alot, and your goal as Mephisto is to hit as many heroes as you can. This quest adds a very hefty % increase to your selfhealing through Hateful Mending.
However the talent Unyielding power's most significant boost is the final quest reward, sets the cooldown to 5 seconds.
This combined with Mephistos trait basicly gives him Gul'Dan like spammability with his Skull Missile and it heals Mephisto at the same time and does not restrict Mephisto to stay put in his current location.
There's just way too many detailed interactions to be described but all in all, you have very short cooldowns with this talent, as long as you hit atleast 2 heroes, which is most of the time, really, really easy.

Level 7 we usually pick trickery, this is not a mandatory pick but it's the most versatile one and it actually can give us an extra tick at lvl 16 (explained later)

Level 10. If you feel like you cant play with Durance of Hate then don't but I seriously recommend it. If you cant land it on a moving target then I would suggest to wait for an allies hard cc (Xul root, Anub stun etc)
Durance of hate sets up your combo but if you have a CC heavy team with you, they can do that for you but I find it easier to set up my own combos.

On level 13 I recommend the increased Spell power from Q. This increases your damage and your selfhealing substantially because of your non-existing cooldowns and constant aoe damage. You can really tell the difference in survivability after a dozen games played against different type of enemy damage dealers.
For staying alive, this is your best bet and it also happens to boost your damage at the same.
Hysteria also makes for a compelling choice because of your rapid Skullmissile and lightning nova spam. You can have your ultimate ability up pretty much right after the combat has finished. This is quite powerful for such long cooldown based Ultimates. (Hysteria works better with Consume souls but losing Durance of Hate makes the 5on5 combats harder, atleast for me)

Talent tier 16 is the make or break talent tier.
Nova talents are utter and total crap in this build. Again, these are powerful for a full lightning nova build but that's not what we're going for.
Lightning reaction beats the !@#$ out of these other "options".
Did you know that Lightning reaction can hit a single enemy 4 times? Yes, 4 times. At level 16 that's more than 1.5k damage (JUST FROM THIS TALENT ALONE) and all of that damage heals you. And this is only on one target. Usually you'll have multiple targets infront of you, cc'd in a line. This build is pretty much a Kel'thuzad oneshot victory combo.

Now if you're wondering how do I hit 4 times with a lightning reaction? Well I don't have a clip for you unfortunately but maybe someone can search it for us from youtube?
The essential thing is this.
1. Cast skull missile towards and enemy
2. Activate lightning nova
3. Jump with your shade towards your target but either on the "left hand" or "right hand" side of it so that your lightning nova covers the lined path for your skull missile. This way the skull missile travels along your lightning nova, not just through it. This makes it to proc 2-4 times depending purely on your and your enemies position.


Now I'm not going to explain every detail that happens with your talents here but simply but:
ALOT of AOE damage
Alot of selfsustain healing
Alot of cooldown reduction

A kill or two.

And because of the massive cooldown reduction from this combo, you'll have it back up in 3-5 seconds. The full combo, yes, indeed.
Also while I mentioned trickery due to the movement speed this allows you to move along the enemy you're hoping to hit with your skill missile + lightning nova combo slightly faster than without the talent. This moving along the target grants you an extra lightning nova & Skull Missile: Lightning reaction, reaction. Otherwise the skull missile just flies past your nova and the last proc does not occur because the missile is no longer in the "zone".

So, all in all. This makes for a very intimidating, yet challenging and fun build to play on Mephisto.

Level 20 it hardly matters what you pick, that's on you. I like all of them.

So when people are saying Mephisto has been nerfed over the board and drowned beneath the deepest mud layers of atlantic,
No He Has Been Not.

Strong as F***.
Go play him, enjoy!
09/28/2018 02:54 PMPosted by DepressedRob
I frankly only want them to increase basic attack range to normal range, so that he can get more value out of his basic attack talents. A slight basic attack damage buff linked to the basic attack talents would also be nice.


i think the logic was that his auto attack range was his ring range. i think the devs intended that Mephisto could do a auto attack build and it would combo with lightning nova very well, (if you don't know Mephisto auto attacks and lightning nova have the same range)
Its because people autistically dived in with W and were sure to wreck some faces. Now that you cant really do that, rather than actually learning how to play him, they complain.

Lightning Nova (his main damage source) damage reduced from 48 to 45.
My god, unplayable.

Maximum bonus damage reduced from 40% to 30%.
He was stacking it very fast so they did exactly what they should have done.

As for his ultimate. It shouldnt have been brought up at the design table. It is either too strong or too weak.
I'd definitely decrease the Q's cast delay from 0.75 to 0.5 sec.
My most desired buff for him, really.
09/29/2018 12:01 AMPosted by WereElf
So the best suggestion I've seen here is:
Increase his basic attack damage.
And I think Skull missile needs reduced delay rather than increased damage. Not much of a point from increased damage if it can't hit anything.


100% this. Level 18 Meph here: making his Q dependable poke rather than damage oriented bolsters the rest of his kit significantly with his trait.

Mephisto is still very, very, very strong hero.
The only thing the devs did was to "murder" the "Cookie Cutter" build, that every skilled and not-so-skilled player picked.

....

Strong as F***.
Go play him, enjoy!


I saw your post earlier and tested this as I've played all 3 Meph builds but haven't tried Durance yet; I can see your point but I think you're over exaggerating the damage.
Well the actual damage that can be done with the lightning reaction trick is staggering, but it is also highly situational, difficult to pull off, and requires all basic abilities to be off cd. Am I the only one who swears by Animosity? It's so much more reliable than the other 16 talents.

I do agree that some of his current perceived weakness lies in people's refusal to adapt and pick different talents, however, I also feel that currently some of his talents (like Unyielding power) are kinda forced picks now.

There seems to be a general consensus here that a shift in power from consume souls to either/or his AA or Q would be the best way to re-balance him and I'm inclined to agree (hopefully durance becomes more viable at some point because currently its still not a great option).
Yznekrog,

I might be over exaggerating the build a bit, sure. I'm not the most punctual fellow but I am clearing the table 1v2 to 1v5 on a regular basis, even in Hero league.
Now I'm not going to argue that all the opponents are at full health but if I hit Durance of hate, everyone who it touches, will die.
The expanding root + aoe slows from Skull Missile makes it really easy to first of all:
Survive
Ramp up your nova
Hit multiple targets
Do it all again.

It's a rarity to see someone walk alive out of a successfull Durance of Hate, Just like E.T.C's Moshpit. That's how effective it is.
It just requires presice positioning, targeting, jumping... and well the location where you are strike at them ... but after you've played the build for a dozen of games (10-30) you'll start spotting the plausible tunnels and chokepoints just like with every character.

It's fun, It's good, It's "challenging" ;)
And it looks cool and you'll get your team calling out to you telling that you're a monster...
... if that helps?

And what comes to Animosity at level 16. Yeah, that was my first goto talent on that tier. It's still great, gives a heck alot of CDR too and deals decent damage. As you said Morquedeas, it is more reliable for the majority of players.
But honestly, why would you not have all your spells off CD when the combat begins?
You'll start by harassing with Skull Missile and due to the naturally low CD it's back up in a few and if you succesfully hit, it's instantly back up.
09/29/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Morquedeas
hopefully durance becomes more viable at some point because currently its still not a great option

That ulti has below 40% win rate, it needs a serious buff before it becomes viable xP
09/29/2018 03:06 PMPosted by WereElf
09/29/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Morquedeas
hopefully durance becomes more viable at some point because currently its still not a great option

That ulti has below 40% win rate, it needs a serious buff before it becomes viable xP

I'd rather rework it into something more interesting instead.
I mean, they can buff it as much as they want, but it still won't change the fact that it's a dull ability to no end (Malf's E as a skill-shot, really).

How about change it into something similar to what DotA 2's Winter Wyvern has (Winter's Curse)?
Here's how her ultimate reads, for those who don't know (with relevant bit in bold):
Winter Wyvern freezes an enemy in place while striking those nearby with a maddening curse which causes them to attack their frozen ally with increased attack speed.
The frozen ally and those cursed to attack their ally are immune to all damage from their enemies.


Of course Blizzard would make their own spin with this mechanic, but this is something very fitting for Mephisto (turning his enemies against each other) and would serve as a good replacement for the CC themed heroic that is current DoH, but with an interesting twist.
I actually read somewhere that the devs were indeed trying out different things about Mephisto, including something similar - enemies attacking eachother, and I suspect that this ulti was indeed doing that during development phase, but it was either too unfun to play against, either hard to balance.
09/28/2018 02:54 PMPosted by TimeSpike
I guess that ult people complain about isn't free wins after all...


The issue isn't the ult being an "instawin". The issue is the mechanics it involves, the precedent set and the effect it has on a game overall.
09/29/2018 11:46 PMPosted by WereElf
I actually read somewhere that the devs were indeed trying out different things about Mephisto, including something similar - enemies attacking eachother, and I suspect that this ulti was indeed doing that during development phase, but it was either too unfun to play against, either hard to balance.

Tbh, I don't know how is it any more unfun or hard to balance than any other CC+dmg heroic.

OT:
Reducking CD of his E to be same as that of his W could be a neat little buff since those two are almost exclusively used together.
So? Stop basing your opinion on statistics and be salty about him killing you from across the map. If someone else quoted HotsLogs I bet that you'd jump on them saying it's unreliable. But it looks like you enjoy playing Mephisto and wrecking the entire team. Stupid hypocrite
09/29/2018 08:24 AMPosted by Godfred
09/28/2018 02:54 PMPosted by DepressedRob
I frankly only want them to increase basic attack range to normal range, so that he can get more value out of his basic attack talents. A slight basic attack damage buff linked to the basic attack talents would also be nice.


i think the logic was that his auto attack range was his ring range. i think the devs intended that Mephisto could do a auto attack build and it would combo with lightning nova very well, (if you don't know Mephisto auto attacks and lightning nova have the same range)


Yeah, I already knew that, and it makes sense...but in a way I find it's too limiting to reduce the AA range just because it makes using another ability easier, which in the end is just a skill question (people get used to it).
The problem with the low attack range is that it kind of counter-synergizes with anger at lvl 1. Usually, Meph wants to land basic attacks and reduce CD when his skills (mainly W and E) are on cooldown...but when E is on cooldown, getting close is really dangerous, so you can't really land AA reliably.
The difference in range makes a big difference. Because at 5.5, you are out of range of many skillshots (or at least have longer time to react). At 4.5 you are well within range of pretty much everything.

A different approach would be to have the range just as it is, but half the attack speed, double the damage and double the effect of anger. This way, Meph wouldn't have to stay close for AA, but instead go in, AA, go out, repeat
09/28/2018 02:54 PMPosted by TimeSpike
I guess that ult people complain about isn't free wins after all...

it's still pretty cheap though ;)

i don't mind it, it's just a minor anoyance... global, damage and slow... just push a button and "nuke" the team. that's my only gripe with it...

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