A reason why this game can feel toxic

General Discussion
I want this game to be as good as it can be just like everyone else, but wins are really feeling like they are worth more than the richest metals on earth to certain players. My main theory is that the toxicity has a lot to do with win rates in this game. Many of us are brought up in households where receiving anything less than a B or C grade (70-80%) in school is the equivalent to failure in various authority figures' eyes. We, as players, have to be okay with receiving a 50-60% grade average (D- or F). In other words, we have to be okay with a 50-60% win rate. (However, sometimes people have less than a 50% win rate.)

"What does a 50 to 60% win rate mean in terms of how you progress in this game?"

I did some simple math that any average middle school kid can come up with, but it reasonably shows how a 50 to 60% win rate equates to thoughts that wins are pure riches in this game. At first, I thought of just taking an absolute extreme. A 51% win rate can basically be thought of as a 60% win rate at best odds just to round to a whole number. In my thoughts, it takes about 5 net wins to reach the next rank. A ratio of 3 wins to 2 losses, 3/5, is a 60% win rate. That's 1 net win for every 5 games played. Since you need 5 net wins to reach the next rank, then you need 25 games, essentially, to reach the next rank at a solid 60% win rate. (This isn't meant to take into account win streaks and loss streaks, just a solid 60% win rate.) Basically, I found 5 net wins by saying 1 win is worth ~+200 points and a loss is worth ~-200 points. If you need 1000 points to rank up, 1000/200= 5.

Just for theory sake, what if we wanted to get from the bottom of bronze 5 to diamond 1, somehow? Maybe at a 60% win rate?
At a 3 wins, 2 loss ratio = 1 net win for 5 games played = 60% win rate.

25 games = 1 rank
125 games = 1 tier (5 ranks)
625 games = 5 tiers (25 ranks)

What if we didn't have a 60% win rate? What if we had, say, a 55% win rate?

At a 2.75 wins, 2.25 loss ratio = 1 net win for 10 games played = 55% win rate.
(.5 net wins for 5 games played) (.55 * 5 = 2.75)

50 games = 1 rank
250 games = 1 tier
1250 games = 5 tiers

What if we didn't have a 55% win rate? What if we had, say, a 51% win rate?

At a 2.55 wins, 2.45 loss ratio = 1 net win for 50 games played = 51% win rate
(.1 net wins for 5 games played) (.51 * 5 = 2.55)

250 games = 1 rank
1250 games = 1 tier
6250 games = 5 tiers

At a 2.5 win, 2.5 loss ratio = 0 net wins for ~ games played = 50% win rate

Now, let's talk time. 1 draft is usually about 5 minutes give or take. 1 game is about 20 min give or take. Generously, a full game (draft + game) will be about 25 min, again, give or take. At a 60% win rate, trying to go from bronze 5 to diamond 1, it will take you 10 hrs a rank. 52 hrs a tier. 260 hrs to complete. That's 10-11 days of game time. Not so bad...but that's 60% win rate.

At a 55% win rate, again trying to go from bronze 5 to diamond 1, it will take you 20 hrs a rank. 104 hrs a tier. 520 hrs to complete. That's 21-22 days of game time.

At a 51% win rate, again trying to go from bronze 5 to diamond 1, it will take you 104 hrs a rank. 520 hrs a tier. 2604 hrs to complete. That's 108-109 days of game time. Geez, that's almost a full season.

You can, of course, do the math for yourself and discover how long it will take you to achieve your goal, but you probably aren't going to like the amount of time it will take to achieve it. It will probably be just out of reach too, just out of reach.

To be clear, I'm not upset at all by lowish win rates. I'm aiming to understand why it has to take so long to progress and at a 51% win rate, a win can feel like it's worth 10 times as much as a loss vs. 60% win rate. The pressure is on.
The reason why this game can feel toxic. People lose it when they get beaten.Like every pvp activity.
People get madder at losses when they carry more weight though. Right now a loss, even in positive streak ESPECIALLY when you add in promotion games, just feels like a heavy blow. You can get stuck at the top of a rank easily because you can't secure 2-3 wins in a row. Combine that with the necessity of teammates and it can get down right brutal.

At times it feels like you "need" to be a master to solidify diamond, and a diamond player to secure high gold. Because you don't need to just be a little better to climb, you have to be a LOT better than the competition, which is draining for those wanting equal matches.

In my opinion wins need to bank points that are taken away on losses. A win streak will make your losses not so bad, and if you are losing more than you win, you fall at normal rate. I have played games in the past ( grinding MMORPG) that you lost SOOOO much when you died, enough that one stupid death took away HOURS of productive leveling, and my god is it disheartening, and they included that into a ladder system that has negative returns outweighing positive.
If there's one thing I've noticed. It's that every game has "toxic" issues. So perhaps it's not the game that is "toxic", but the people that play it.
09/29/2018 12:14 AMPosted by Kotumser
If there's one thing I've noticed. It's that every game has "toxic" issues. So perhaps it's not the game that is "toxic", but the people that play it.
or perhaps the people who made it
I can't remember the last time I played an online PvP game that WASN'T toxic. It is apparently just the nature of PvP games (especially when you don't actually know your opponents.)
09/28/2018 11:48 PMPosted by MacWeak
The reason why this game can feel toxic. People lose it when they get beaten.Like every pvp activity.
yep you are right. fifa ist the best example. 1 shot another in a turnament because he lost for example.
So people are getting hung up on the word "toxic." Every pvp game is toxic, yes, like monopoly is quite possibly the most toxic board game in existence...

I want to focus on player's feelings that it may take too long to move in the current rank system and that, for the standard player and not just casual, it is taking too much time to progress in this game as the devs have it set.

You can get stuck at the top of a rank easily because you can't secure 2-3 wins in a row. Combine that with the necessity of teammates and it can get down right brutal.


I agree. I feel like if it didn't take 1000 points to rank up and instead took 750 or so, it would make for a much more rewarding experience; however, you could still fall at the same rate, thats why i also like the banked points idea. There has to be some kind of mitigation because losing is so much easier than winning. Most of the time im losing more points than im gaining. A win may be a win, but not when a win is worth +188 points and a loss is worth -202.
It's human nature to be toxic in a competitive environment.

And Blizzard is punishing human nature.
My win rate floats between 49.5 and 52. I win 4 games, i lose 4 games. Rinse and repeat.
That !@#$ is frustrating.
Without fair matches with good team comps this game is really become into pain in your !@# if you play it. After some matches I feel this game as worst Moba ever. Alpha and Beta feels more more enjoyable than now (i think because more heroes had flexibility in talents).
Aww crud, i forgot to take into account queue times...that shoots it up to like 30 min a game doesn't it?
Every loss means getting matched with the really low skill players in this game for several more games, which means you get hundreds added to your thousand or so games you already have to win to get past them and in enjoyable games for once (win or lose).

That is why it matters.

Win Win Win

Lose because AFKs, Feeders etc. One in 7 to 10 losses actually feels like a legitimate loss. The rest are forced carry scenarios. You with a bunch of much lower win rate players. I don't know what it accomplishes at all. Instead of actually testing any sort of skill.. the system just forces a loss. Instead of fine tuning the spectrum... putting actual like players against like... it would rather create a game that is volatile (a total stomp one way or the other) and in the end doesn't make any sense either. And those incredibly hard won wins you weren't supposed to win? You know what I'm talking about. Yea those just get followed by even more carry scenarios. None of these games are actually fun.

P. S. The EASY win games aren't fun either.
The whole situation of getting MVP during a loss is the worst kind of loss there is. You played your 110% best but it did not matter whatsoever... Blizzard set you to lose anyway.
It is a TEAM game, and heroes are for the most part designed to be dependent on each other...... but the system forces carry scenarios where you have to fight your way solo/duo to win. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
This game wasn't ever meant to be WoW in terms of how much time you could possibly spend on it and turn it into progression and reward. Also, I don't know the exact population of this game, but, judging from the views it gets on a weekday or without HGC on a weekend compared to LoL or DotA2 that are consistently at the top(its at around #51 behind games like super mario party), it seems low.

I read a post somewhere, where a player was arguing that mmrs were high and low at each rank. It didn't matter what rank you were, so you could have a high mmr at a low rank and a low mmr at a high rank. What mattered was simply winning and losing and what your win rate is at the time you are initially placed and for the first 100 games or so from placements on. Essentially, the more games you play, then the deeper you dig your hole into a static state in rank. High mmr or not, your account/rank wont really move. This could be due to personal rank adjustments and favored/unfavored adjustments, the game literally won't let you move. Are favored/unfavored adjustments due to rank or "hidden mmr?"

From personal experience, last season i played around 150-160 games, which is what i consider a moderate amount. Some master level players play 350+, but as a standard player i think around 150 is pretty good. I never received any positive rank adjustment(i did receive negative rank adjustment quite frequently), I won all ten of my placement games, and i finished the season around 54% win rate. I started Gold 5 and ended Silver 1. I have been playing this game for about 3 years and so i have accrued a lot of games and I feel my mmr "hole" has been dug quite deep. I guess there's one question from player's like me: "how do I dig out?"

The only answer: "PLAY MORE!"

In my initial playing of the game, i would duo queue with my friend and he would play a carry and I would play a healer or a tank normally. I never obtained a high amount of kills (i think my average kills was like 2-3 a game); however, my takedowns were sky high at like 15-16 a game. My deaths averaged like 1-2 a game. I didn't normally have a high amount of exp contributed, just a moderate amount because of the role i was playing (main tank or healer). I feel like i tanked my mmr due to the stats i received in the game. I was probably getting low mmr increments added when i won and huge deficits when i lost. Although, my win rate was pretty good (definitely above 50%). Now, later in the game I'm finally starting to branch out into assassins more and more, but i feel like the damage is done and my account is totaled.
09/28/2018 10:45 PMPosted by Zydar
At a 51% win rate, a win can feel like it's worth 10 times as much as a loss. The pressure is on.


lul at 51% WR, you're pretty much right where you should be.
mobas in general have a higher toxicity than other genres due to their high skill ceiling.
People are just getting hung up on the word "toxic"...

lul at 51% WR, you're pretty much right where you should be.


The main point in my opinion was that the time it takes to progress in this game is kind of a lot, and that any real progress the average standard player makes on a given day is rather low because the player is only playing 5 or less games a day on average. It's a team game that's true, but, the way the devs have it set up, you have to play hundreds and hundreds of games to show a true mmr and THAT mmr is only based upon the heroes or roles you've been playing and not the heroes you could play. Another point is that, somewhere down the road, you will be able to buy/find a new hero and that hero you will completely own on; however, since you have been playing certain roles or heroes, your mmr is static based on those heroes you've been playing hundreds of games on and not the heroes you could play. This is in due to the fact that not all heroes are available for play initially and that you have to buy heroes individually.

For example:
A person plays 1000 games as mainly tanks and heals as part of a team and feels most comfortable on them. She/he doesn't want to play assassins or specialists just yet, for any reason. Her/his mmr is static because she/he can't carry the game as the main tank or healer as well as other players can carry on a specialist or assassin. (You can carry on a healer or tank, but it's just a bit harder to accomplish; however, healers and tanks are also an essential part of the team.) Albeit it was her/his choice to choose these roles right off the bat, but there is no comeback mechanism built in for people who find new heroes kind of "late in the game." Their win rates are really set at what heroes they play with.

This is why smurfing is the only answer. You've tanked one account trying to find heroes you could play and so you create another account with heroes you'll win on. It's sad really, your main account, with all that time and money put in, is worthless in the long run, literally.
toxicity in MOBAs is caused by the time commitment of a match, multiplied by how early in a match is perceived to "have been lost"
Heroes of the Storm is the least-bad MOBA about these
It's just a part of the genre. It's a feature, not a bug
Bc the high people get from epic wins is also caused by the same stuff that causes the toxicity. If you want a non-toxic MOBA, you have to play something other than a MOBA

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