A reason why this game can feel toxic

General Discussion
There isn't one reason why there is toxicity in this city...there are many, many reasons. A big reason, however, is that it takes a substantial amount of time and effort to achieve something that shouldn't be taking so long. Especially if you have somewhat of a decent win rate. I'm not asking for light speed here. I'm asking for a loosened rank system. Maybe even one without favored/unfavored adjustments and personal rank adjustment. If i won and gained 200 points and lost and lost 200 points that would be okay. It's losing and losing -202 points(-2 personal rank) and winning and gaining only +188 points (-10 favored, -2 personal rank) that makes people toxic. Even though i went 1 win and 1 loss, I'm still netting -14 points.

The fact is that even at a 51% win rate you are still progressing forward, but it takes you A LOT of time to get where you want/can be. A player can get there at a 51% win rate it just takes an enormous amount of time and the more a player plays, then the more they dig the hole and prevent themselves from getting there. That is what it's feeling like. It is as if I, as a player, am fighting not only my opponents, but the game itself. Not only are the opponents trying to make me lose (which they should), but the game is trying to make you lose as well.

As an example, I received constant negative rank adjustment last season pretty much every single game; however, i won all my placement matches and still had a 54% win rate after 150+ games. Yet, i ended a rank lower than i should be because, not only am i fighting the opponents, i am fighting the mm system itself.

I'm not saying i hate this game (in fact i really like this game.) I'm saying it's not fair to reward players that have barely played HotS with positive rank adjustment and curse others with 1000+ games with negative rank adjustment just because they had a rough start by playing certain roles or certain heroes. This game requires you to play A LOT so you can unlock all the heroes and discover new ones that might make you surge in MMR. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be the case. Congratulations to everyone who found that hero early that got them to diamond or masters. I may have found the heroes late, but there's zero chance of saving my account without an mmr reset or loosening of the mmr average or simply lessening the time it takes to rank up or down in the game.

In fact, I don't really know what's wrong with my account. Somebody jokingly told me I even broke the system. It doesn't make sense to win so much and still be receiving negative rank adjustment after 150+ games in a season.
Toxic people will be toxic regardless of the game, because that's the kind of people they are. They play pvp games because they need to feel superior beating someone else, but then they can't handle losing themselves. And in team games like HotS (and HotS specifically putting more emphasis on teamwork), they just have a convent excuse in blaming someone- because they'll never admit they could be at fault for any reason.

And then you also have trolls who specifically want to make as many other people upset as possible, and moba are by far the easiest genre to do that in.
Anybody care to comment on the actual post and not just the words "toxic" or "toxicity?"
Dude, you are not supposed to do drugs and post. There are so many holes on your post and theory I don't know where to begin.
Toxic game? So the game insulted you or something?
09/29/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Werbs713
Dude, you are not supposed to do drugs and post. There are so many holes on your post and theory I don't know where to begin.


Then begin? I don't know what to say. Don't do drugs and reply?

09/29/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Draco
Toxic game? So the game insulted you or something?


No it didn't. I never said it was a toxic game i said it feels toxic. That's a different thing. Did the game insult you?
09/29/2018 07:07 PMPosted by Zydar
09/29/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Werbs713
Dude, you are not supposed to do drugs and post. There are so many holes on your post and theory I don't know where to begin.


Then begin? I don't know what to say. Don't do drugs and reply?

09/29/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Draco
Toxic game? So the game insulted you or something?


No it didn't. I never said it was a toxic game i said it feels toxic. That's a different thing. Did the game insult you?
Feel or sound, you're still talking about the game, not me, son
09/29/2018 07:09 PMPosted by Draco
09/29/2018 07:07 PMPosted by Zydar
...

Then begin? I don't know what to say. Don't do drugs and reply?

...

No it didn't. I never said it was a toxic game i said it feels toxic. That's a different thing. Did the game insult you?
Feel or sound, you're still talking about the game, not me, son


Who said sound? I'm not your son, guy.
09/29/2018 07:12 PMPosted by Zydar
09/29/2018 07:09 PMPosted by Draco
...Feel or sound, you're still talking about the game, not me, son


Who said sound? I'm not your son, guy.
I did. And I'm not your guy, pal
09/29/2018 07:07 PMPosted by Zydar
09/29/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Werbs713
Dude, you are not supposed to do drugs and post. There are so many holes on your post and theory I don't know where to begin.


Then begin? I don't know what to say. Don't do drugs and reply?

09/29/2018 06:47 PMPosted by Draco
Toxic game? So the game insulted you or something?


No it didn't. I never said it was a toxic game i said it feels toxic. That's a different thing. Did the game insult you?


Just going to state the biggest problem with your post. Any player that belongs in diamond will destroy bronze through gold with 90% + win rate in bronze and silver and 75-80%+ in gold, any player only getting a 60% win rate is maybe 1 tier higher then their current rank. Your time table is way way off.

The majority of players, excluding you obviously, realizes that in a game only half of the players can win thus a 50% win rate would equate to a 4 based on the current grading system schools use where 4 is performing as expected, 5 is excelling, 3 needs improvement, 2 is failing and a 1 is an incomplete. I haven't seen a single school use ABCDF for grading in the last 15 years.

Those 2 are huge and are only the tip of the iceberg of failings in your post.
09/29/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Werbs713
09/29/2018 07:07 PMPosted by Zydar
...

Then begin? I don't know what to say. Don't do drugs and reply?

...

No it didn't. I never said it was a toxic game i said it feels toxic. That's a different thing. Did the game insult you?


Just going to state the biggest problem with your post. Any player that belongs in diamond will destroy bronze through gold with 90% + win rate in bronze and silver and 75-80%+ in gold, any player only getting a 60% win rate is maybe 1 tier higher then their current rank. Your time table is way way off.

The majority of players, excluding you obviously, realizes that in a game only half of the players can win thus a 50% win rate would equate to a 4 based on the current grading system schools use where 4 is performing as expected, 5 is excelling, 3 needs improvement, 2 is failing and a 1 is an incomplete. I haven't seen a single school use ABCDF for grading in the last 15 years.

Those 2 are huge and are only the tip of the iceberg of failings in your post.


Why do you have to be so rude as to call them failings, first off? Second, I really don't know who uses a 1-5 grade system. Third, people have 90%+ win rates in this game? Fourth, my time tables are sound for people within those percentages, which happens to be most of the players in the game. Fifth, please continue about my iceberg of "failings" because I need to understand what a contrarian truly believes.
09/29/2018 05:30 PMPosted by Zydar
As an example, I received constant negative rank adjustment last season pretty much every single game; however, i won all my placement matches and still had a 54% win rate after 150+ games. Y


THIS IS INSANE. ^^^

I won't even play HL because I know its broken.... I've played QM pretty much exclusively till I see an improvement there. Because if QM is fixed then so is HL. Your story is why I won't go to HL anytime soon. I would be dealing with same exact thing I'm sure of it. Last I was there I did have a positive rank adjustment but still the games felt like they were disgustingly fixed. Win one or two? Get really bad team mates in the next few matches. Until this HANDICAP mechanic stops happening (everywhere) I simply cannot take ranked seriously. It doesn't even exist. It's just a game mode calling itself ranked.
09/29/2018 07:57 AMPosted by Norber
Without fair matches with good team comps this game is really become into pain in your !@# if you play it. After some matches I feel this game as worst Moba ever. Alpha and Beta feels more more enjoyable than now (i think because more heroes had flexibility in talents).


Agreed. I feel the game has gotten progressively worse.
09/29/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Winter
09/29/2018 05:30 PMPosted by Zydar
As an example, I received constant negative rank adjustment last season pretty much every single game; however, i won all my placement matches and still had a 54% win rate after 150+ games. Y


THIS IS INSANE. ^^^

I won't even play HL because I know its broken.... I've played QM pretty much exclusively till I see an improvement there. Because if QM is fixed then so is HL. Your story is why I won't go to HL anytime soon. I would be dealing with same exact thing I'm sure of it. Last I was there I did have a positive rank adjustment but still the games felt like they were disgustingly fixed. Win one or two? Get really bad team mates in the next few matches. Until this HANDICAP mechanic stops happening (everywhere) I simply cannot take ranked seriously. It doesn't even exist. It's just a game mode calling itself ranked.


^^^^^

My HL MMR is 1000 points lower then unranked or QM.

Honestly, all Blizzard needs to do is make rank strictly MMR based; get rid of the additional "you need 1000 points" on top of that; that makes it so you need to be well above .500 to progress anywhere.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

THIS IS INSANE. ^^^

I won't even play HL because I know its broken.... I've played QM pretty much exclusively till I see an improvement there. Because if QM is fixed then so is HL. Your story is why I won't go to HL anytime soon. I would be dealing with same exact thing I'm sure of it. Last I was there I did have a positive rank adjustment but still the games felt like they were disgustingly fixed. Win one or two? Get really bad team mates in the next few matches. Until this HANDICAP mechanic stops happening (everywhere) I simply cannot take ranked seriously. It doesn't even exist. It's just a game mode calling itself ranked.


^^^^^

My HL MMR is 1000 points lower then unranked or QM.

Honestly, all Blizzard needs to do is make rank strictly MMR based; get rid of the additional "you need 1000 points" on top of that; that makes it so you need to be well above .500 to progress anywhere.


That is the dream isn't it? A real measure on how well you, as an individual (rather than a team of randoms), are performing. I think we are stuck with rank though and it's going to be strictly win/loss based for a long time to come. I think even the MMR is win/loss based. Gain mmr when you win (even if you sucked) and lose mmr if you lose (even if you played your heart out).

I remember back playing dota1 on wc3ft bnet and playing on a bot mod app called "void." They had a pretty good mmr calculator that no one could really argue with. Good players had high mmrs and bad ones had low ones and their win rates were shown to reflect it. You could still maintain a positive mmr even if you lost and receive a negative mmr even if you won. It really showed who was getting carried and who was actually good. I know i cant compare dota1 to hots, but this is simply to prove that an individual based mmr system can exist.

Hots just has so many factors than can contribute to an individuals mmr. In dota its relatively simple, kills, deaths, assists, creep kill, structure kill. In hots, its a whole array of stuff. Mainly, each hero would have to have an individual calculator for itself. The mmr wouldn't be calculated strictly by kills if you were a healer or tank, for instance. The mmr would take into account the talent choices you selected compared to what they game thought could be the completely right talent choice given the factors of the match (what talents the other team chose, what heroes were on your team, what heroes were on the other team...) the mmr wouldn't necessarily be interested in kills as it would be takedowns and what percentage you were in on out of the total number of takedowns. Then, it would have to take into account how many abilities you used relative to other data gathered from other games (either games you played or games of other people). How many skill shots you landed or didn't land. How much healing you did, how much dmg you did and how much exp contributed (do these matter for the main tank [how do you determine the main tank?] or healer?), how many deaths you had.

It would be a huge undertaking to accomplish for a developer, but I truly believe it could be done. Right now, I think the mm system is still a little unrefined because it still is partially based on winning and losing. If we didn't take winning and losing into account you would get a much better individual picture.

One major reason they don't show us mmr is that they don't want us to exploit the system (figure out what gets you a higher mmr and abuse it.) However, it couldn't be abused if it was so intricate that a player really couldn't figure it out without being on the blizzard team and knowing the algorithm and with so many factors playing into the game, such as talent choices, it would be nearly impossible to truly figure it out. Talent choices are solely based on what you, as a player, think is the best option. The game might disagree with you based on thousands (if not millions, if we have tht high pop) of games of statistics and you maybe wouldn't ever know/wouldn't know until the end of the game.
09/30/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Zydar
the mmr wouldn't necessarily be interested in kills as it would be takedowns and what percentage you were in on out of the total number of takedowns.


That system is already in place. (The very DUMB MVP system. Also the little reminder to the right of the score screen that pats you on the back for little things that don't matter (e. g. " Good job you used X ability 49.2 times, thats 2.9 % more than you do usually." They already have the data but it just doesn't work.

How many times have you seen the team mate who threw the match become MVP of your losing game (essentially MvP for the enemy team)? I've seen it more times than I can tell. When its a feeder MVP its just utterly disgusting. Even when its just one of the commendation spots to either side of the MVP. And thing is.. I really think they would implement Personal MMR like this live.... making it positive oriented and ignoring lets say a players 80 deaths.

The system is also highly manipulated. Get enough kills then go farm some siege for a bit. My master friend does this all the time.
09/29/2018 12:11 AMPosted by Psykout
People get madder at losses when they carry more weight though. Right now a loss, even in positive streak ESPECIALLY when you add in promotion games, just feels like a heavy blow. You can get stuck at the top of a rank easily because you can't secure 2-3 wins in a row. Combine that with the necessity of teammates and it can get down right brutal.

At times it feels like you "need" to be a master to solidify diamond, and a diamond player to secure high gold. Because you don't need to just be a little better to climb, you have to be a LOT better than the competition, which is draining for those wanting equal matches.

In my opinion wins need to bank points that are taken away on losses. A win streak will make your losses not so bad, and if you are losing more than you win, you fall at normal rate. I have played games in the past ( grinding MMORPG) that you lost SOOOO much when you died, enough that one stupid death took away HOURS of productive leveling, and my god is it disheartening, and they included that into a ladder system that has negative returns outweighing positive.

are u talking about Runescape?:p
They could be tracking the stats we see at the end of the game (silencer, rooter etc...), but who knows what they actually include in the hidden mmr calculation.
09/29/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Hexagon
My win rate floats between 49.5 and 52. I win 4 games, i lose 4 games. Rinse and repeat.
That !@#$ is frustrating.


Yet it means mm is perfect. Since you play right at your rank. You win 50/50

What is there to change. Put you vs worse player so that you win more.

Improve and you will win more. Then back to 50/50 since then you are again where you belong.

Im same 52.6%. Close to 50/50. Im where i belong.And its gold 3.

My bro who is master 1.5k is same. 52.3%. He also belongs there.

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