Your QM gave them 3 assassins...

General Discussion
So why did you give our team 0?

Brightwing, Azmodan, Nazeebo, Johanna, Tassadar

VS

Kerrigan, Diablo, Mephisto, Butcher, Tyrande

Realistically, how were we supposed to win? That's a rhetorical question, of course, there is no way. They can simply right click and win all fights. 1 tank and no assassins vs 3 assassins... Could you include a simple sanity check for the QM matchmaker? Here are two helpful hints.

Does Team A have 2 or more assassins, while Team B has 0? If so, don't start the match.

Does Team A have trashbin characters like Tassadar, while Team A is majority upper-tier characters? If so, don't start the match.

Making simple changes like this would go a long way to improving QM. It's already a Clownfiesta, and good matches are rare, but this is what we have to do to play the character we want without getting reported.
This game is not balanced primarly around QM and it shouldn't be.
Jo counters butcher. If you guys survived, nazeebo could do damage at 20, but yeh it is a very hard draw. Tassadar is beyond useless in that comp.
Jo counters butcher. .


For like 3 secs
09/30/2018 09:49 PMPosted by happyscrub
Jo counters butcher. .


For like 3 secs

Which is more than enough time to kill a big lump with no escapes, no damage, and no self-healing.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

For like 3 secs

Which is more than enough time to kill a big lump with no escapes, no damage, and no self-healing.


How?

1. you don't have much damage

2. You got diablo, Kerrigan, and Mesph diving at the sametime with tyrande spam healing because no one is threating her because yal are too busy trying to burst butcher down with no burst lol
Yes, the QM draw sucked, but it's a totally feasible win: How?

Avoid team fights and forcing them to want a team fight within your pushing mercs/towers/forts. Double pushing + Merc grabbing with BW and/or Johanna running to lanes to help against ganks on Azmodan and Nazeebo.

Why it isn't much feasible?

QM chaos; "where everything is made up and the points don't matter". If you get a group that stands by your tactics in QM, keep them as friends, keep them real close.

*That's why I play QM with friends. I don't need to worry if my strat will offend some snowflake.
I don't know what is the issue here.
Azmodan and Naz is the dmg, BW and Tass for sustain and various utility and Joh for a beefy front with some CC and lock down.
On paper i think the 1st team is "kinda" ok(ish) vs the other team.

I think this is about who knows their chars better :)
09/30/2018 11:11 PMPosted by Offline65
I don't know what is the issue here.
Azmodan and Naz is the dmg, BW and Tass for sustain and various utility and


Both have to ramp up their damage, it's not like they got all the damage from the very beginning, but then again, if Butcher is weak early too but completes his quest, the assassins team gets another advantage. On top of that, Butcher has self-heals, Diablo has self-heals, Kerrigan has strong shields, Mephisto can also talent into good self-sustain and Tyrande has quite good healing numbers. It's obvious the specs team has the inferior teamfighting comp to start with(early game), however, dependend on map and teamplay the game could have been won by using their pushing strenghts.
09/30/2018 11:08 PMPosted by NicePants
Yes, the QM draw sucked, but it's a totally feasible win: How?

Avoid team fights and forcing them to want a team fight within your pushing mercs/towers/forts. Double pushing + Merc grabbing with BW and/or Johanna running to lanes to help against ganks on Azmodan and Nazeebo.

Why it isn't much feasible?

QM chaos; "where everything is made up and the points don't matter". If you get a group that stands by your tactics in QM, keep them as friends, keep them real close.

*That's why I play QM with friends. I don't need to worry if my strat will offend some snowflake.


Not feasible in some map. Some map you can't avoid teamfight at all.

09/30/2018 11:11 PMPosted by Offline65
I don't know what is the issue here.
Azmodan and Naz is the dmg, BW and Tass for sustain and various utility and Joh for a beefy front with some CC and lock down.
On paper i think the 1st team is "kinda" ok(ish) vs the other team.

I think this is about who knows their chars better :)

Yup, both can deal a lot of dmg if opponent cannot threat them but now they got kerri and butcher plus diablo charge knock and then mephisto blink in dmg then ulti to slow you. That team no way to win in team fight.
Bw can poly either kerri or butcher in 1 time only so another one either kerri can pull stun or butcher chain. Tass shield is useless in this, only his wall maybe can help abit. Naze cannot wall kerri because she can jump out, then azmodan laser cannot work in this situation as opponent got too much cc to stop it.

For some map that can push, it also very hard as they got enough fire power to put someone to def that lane. Even 1vs1 most of their hero can win in defending the push. Dunno mephisto ulti follow us by diablo stun ulti can work or not. With mephisto ulti that can slow, diablo stun ulti should able to hit all. Then keri jump in kill jump. Butcher go in chain kill. Hard to see anything left after that fight.
somehow i have to think that players who play QM and then complain about hero compositions are a bit stupid..
10/01/2018 03:10 AMPosted by Creeper
somehow i have to think that players who play QM and then complain about hero compositions are a bit stupid..


It's not about having equally fair matches, this matchup however looks far from just unfair, it looks kinda impossible or near impossible if the circumstances don't allow avoiding teamfights or if single enemies can't be picked out in the right moments. It might be somewhat stupid to complain about hero compositions in QM but it's not stupid to think that the matchmaker could at least try to give games of enjoyable experience(nearest fair). If seeing such matchups I wished backdoor Zagara would be still a thing and when Nydus didn't require creep but just vision to be placed on, that's how games could be won even if you aren't having a suiting tf comp.
09/30/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Stageo
So why did you give our team 0?

Brightwing, Azmodan, Nazeebo, Johanna, Tassadar

VS

Kerrigan, Diablo, Mephisto, Butcher, Tyrande

Realistically, how were we supposed to win?


Macro. You outpush them hard.

Also the enemy comp is really dive-heavy, while most of your comp is good at punishing divers. There should be potential in that too. Find a decent defendable position, dig in and win the poke war. Between Johanna and double healer you should be able to save some dive targets, while Toads + Polymorph + Laser can make it quite painful for anyone to dive you.

Don't stare yourself blind on your comp's weaknesses, also look at your strengths and how to make use of them.
10/01/2018 03:10 AMPosted by Creeper
somehow i have to think that players who play QM and then complain about hero compositions are a bit stupid..


It is not about composition, it is about balance abit and both side got chance to win.
In QM ,we no need always have 1 tank, 2 assassin, 1 healer, 1 specialist. (or 2 tanker 2 dmg, 1 heal...) We just need a bit balance on both side lineup. Both side got enough dmg dealer, CC,.... Not 1 side with heavy dmg while another side got low dmg and 1 side got all CC while another side got 1 cc or almost 0 CC.

When we see 1 hero, we will auto categories that hero as dmg dealer+cc+mobile or 1 tank with CC or specialist that can push with CC.....
That is the way to arrange the people in Quickmatch rather than simply put some MMR or lvl into it without consider the balance of both team in fight.
In QM, if too many queue for assassin, it is ok for both side also got 5vs5 assasin but it is not ok when 1 side 3 assassin vs 3 specialist.
09/30/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Stageo
So why did you give our team 0?

Brightwing, Azmodan, Nazeebo, Johanna, Tassadar

VS

Kerrigan, Diablo, Mephisto, Butcher, Tyrande

Realistically, how were we supposed to win? That's a rhetorical question, of course, there is no way. They can simply right click and win all fights. 1 tank and no assassins vs 3 assassins... Could you include a simple sanity check for the QM matchmaker? Here are two helpful hints.

Does Team A have 2 or more assassins, while Team B has 0? If so, don't start the match.

Does Team A have trashbin characters like Tassadar, while Team A is majority upper-tier characters? If so, don't start the match.

Making simple changes like this would go a long way to improving QM. It's already a Clownfiesta, and good matches are rare, but this is what we have to do to play the character we want without getting reported.

Nazeebo counter butcher and diablo
Johana counter butcher
Azmodan counter mephisto
Brightwing counter kerrigan

Comp wasnt the issue....
There are definitely overpowered turns in quickmatch. I am one who was primarily a QMer from the beginning of HOTS, and over the past year or less, here and there, I've been playing more hero league and now team league. I've won 7 of 8 games in my solo TL placement experience. Seven!!

In quick match, I get these terrible swing matches. Ones where they get 15+ TKs and our team 0 or just a few. Some QMs I feel like a pro, and others, it all swings so terribly in the other direction that it is super tough to want to do it again, but then go into TL or HL and get a much different experience.

I have a match or few to share for you to see how tough it is, how hard it swings. Just recently, we just got shredded. Whatever the magic of how QM selects players or heroes, it will sway against you eventually, and hard, whatever the reason.

- -- --- -- - -- --- -- - -- --- -- - -- --- -- - -- --- -- - -- --- -- - -- --- -- -

nit pick at player's mistakes as you wish, but every match has its own chemistry, and this one had just the right amount of teamwork / lack there of, right amount of lucky 1 shots and pick offs of players with varian/kerrigan, just the right amount of overpowering lane pushing and spell damage by amzodan/ktz, that things happened as they happened. I could show you pro matches where I'm rocking and ones like this where the QM dice say "no". there's no rhyme to it.

Varian, as the only candidate for tank, even went assassin mode vs our 2 tank team, and it didn't matter. In fact, that probabaly made it more overpowered for us. Check the video and the stats/graphs. In the very near end, I wasn't even with the party as I was trying to counteract azmodan's bottom lane push. We were so far behind that it didn't matter where anyone went. 4 up top defeated 4 up top while 2 on bottom did lane stuff.

https://www.hotslogs.com/Player/MatchHistory?PlayerID=162520
filter quickmatch > Dragon Shire, 00:12:48, Zagara, 20, 9/30/2018,10:45:03 PM

https://www.hotslogs.com/Replays/ShareReplay?ReplayShareID=23519
09/30/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Reinhardt
This game is not balanced primarly around QM and it shouldn't be.
i think you could have stopped at "this game is not balanced"
Seriously ,
Some player should try to learn tge tools they available to them before making posts like this.

It makes no sense that a player that their team had a counter for 4 out of 5 character of opposing team is complaining about unfairness towards his comp.
10/01/2018 03:53 AMPosted by MySelf
09/30/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Stageo
So why did you give our team 0?

Brightwing, Azmodan, Nazeebo, Johanna, Tassadar

VS

Kerrigan, Diablo, Mephisto, Butcher, Tyrande

Realistically, how were we supposed to win? That's a rhetorical question, of course, there is no way. They can simply right click and win all fights. 1 tank and no assassins vs 3 assassins... Could you include a simple sanity check for the QM matchmaker? Here are two helpful hints.

Does Team A have 2 or more assassins, while Team B has 0? If so, don't start the match.

Does Team A have trashbin characters like Tassadar, while Team A is majority upper-tier characters? If so, don't start the match.

Making simple changes like this would go a long way to improving QM. It's already a Clownfiesta, and good matches are rare, but this is what we have to do to play the character we want without getting reported.

Nazeebo counter butcher and diablo
Johana counter butcher
Azmodan counter mephisto
Brightwing counter kerrigan

Comp wasnt the issue....

Are you kidding? Naze counter butcher? Once he charge u, he already near u, u want to wall him with u together?
Johanna can blind butcher but how to counter his charge stun chain?
Azmodan can counter mephisto? really? use dunk or laser? he blink in you laser? or dunk? then he back then u can dunk him again?
BW can poly kerri but they don't have enough dmg to kill kerri on time.
There is still got tyrande that can stun,heal reduce spell dmg plus also give teammate movement spd which can outchase opponent.
assuming equal skill, you don't win that. do draft.

QM is almost always gonna be plagued by issues. Yes, it does suck to have that team comp but it's not like assassins are equal in QM. Genji, Tracer, Butcher, and to some extent Illidan are QM pubstompers cause of their kits that almost require countering in draft. and uber-buffed Kerrigan could be joining that list.

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