Discussion - Chen becomes "Anchored"

General Discussion
Hi everyone!

My friend and I were talking about the AMA last week (September 19th) and came across a post that talked about talents that interact with daze and knockback effects.

My friend suggested an "Anchored" trait for Chen only while he's drinking. The "Anchored" effect means that the character is not affected by displacement abilities or stuns that are tied into them. For example, Stitches hook has a stun, but because you will not be pulled you will not be stunned.

The effects of this would cut down the number of ways Chen can be interrupted by roughly 50% just based on the current talents and abilities in the game. My friend made a spreadsheet of the number of interrupts each hero has that can work on Chen (Chen is included for brawls) (Link at the bottom).

This addition will limit the soft counters to Chen and force the enemy team to dedicate hard CCs against him.

To make him a bigger threat on the battlefield, we want to push Chen into an off-tank role by slightly increasing his health and radius. The radius is key, because it would make him a bigger threat in choke points and allow him to block more skill shots. Chen’s new role would be a wall that can separate the enemy team in tight spaces or block incoming skillshots for his team.

With “Anchored” he can do this without risk of being pulled by Stitches or being immediately repositioned by Diablo.

Let me know what you guys think!

Link to spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yGlfanDwjnZC7J4TEKmM7iVHdB5c6QN1AfBmvd2D08A/edit#gid=0

Addition: I should make this clearer, the "Anchored" trait we are talking about is ONLY when he is drinking. The second he stops drinking/starts moving/anything that means he's no longer drinking, "anchored" is gone. It is not linked to the shields in any way.
I like your "anchored" idea. A new type of anti-displacement would certainly be interesting, though I don't see much other use this in general because Unstoppable exists? I don't feel like its very likely HotS would make a personal status effect for just one hero?

In my opinion, an easier fix would be to allow Chen to move slowly while drinking. Having it move means it won't be interrupted by soft knockback and daze effects, and even as slow as 10% movespeed would still be enough for Chen to potentially drunkenly stagger out of the way of some skillshots.
09/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Keigami
I don't see much other use this in general because Unstoppable exists? I don't feel like its very likely HotS would make a personal status effect for just one hero?


The issue with unstoppable it that it has no counter play other than body blocking or waiting out the duration. With Anchored there are still ways for the enemy to play around it so you are allowed to have it for a longer duration.

To me its the Protected status of Unstoppable. While Protected is the weaker Invulnerable because CC can still be applied it can have a higher up time because its not so powerful.

For Chen it turns the draw back of sitting in place into a boon and gives his biggest weakness a purpose beyond just shields and brew while not canceling out the weakness to hard CC he's had since beta.

The Anchored status does not inherently root the character it affects so imagine a hero who could create an AoE field of it for the whole team. Picture a lvl 20 Chen talent (or and ult on a new character) where as he channels his drinking his team near him is anchored. Think about trying to engage onto that objective. You can't pick off members of the team or gust them away.

For Clarity I'm the friend who made the spreadsheet.
09/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Keigami
I don't feel like its very likely HotS would make a personal status effect for just one hero?


Zul'Jin - Unkillable
09/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Keigami
In my opinion, an easier fix would be to allow Chen to move slowly while drinking. Having it move means it won't be interrupted by soft knockback and daze effects, and even as slow as 10% movespeed would still be enough for Chen to potentially drunkenly stagger out of the way of some skillshots.


His current kit causes and enables him to be in the way of enemy skillshots without being as heavily punished as other tanks; that’s what the shields allow him to do.

Giving him movement speed while drinking is not going to fix the biggest problems he has and adding movespeed of any amount while drinking doesn’t help him fill a role. It encourages him not use his kit to tank for his team.
Increase Chen's damage, health and add another charge of Leap ;)
I don't like the idea cause of the hard counter it would provide against heroes like Stitches, Diablo, Dehaka, etc.

Eliminating 50% of the CC against Chen.....that's a pretty big freakin deal. I think the lesson should be learned from Sgt. Hammer that displacement prevention is not the way to go. Even if it's not quite Unstoppable, this is way too potent especially for a spammable trait that provides shielding.
09/27/2018 07:40 PMPosted by LouieKaboom
I don't like the idea cause of the hard counter it would provide against heroes like Stitches, Diablo, Dehaka, etc.

Eliminating 50% of the CC against Chen.....that's a pretty big freakin deal. I think the lesson should be learned from Sgt. Hammer that displacement prevention is not the way to go. Even if it's not quite Unstoppable, this is way too potent especially for a spammable trait that provides shielding.


It’s a hard counter in the same way Li Ming is hard countered by Tracer. Tacer can dodge everything skill Li Ming throws out. The difference is Tracer can then kill Ming, but Chen can’t kill other tanks. The heroes you listed can still pull or charge Chen’s teammates and can still affect Chen if he is not drinking.

If you look at the 50% being eliminated, a lot of CCs are low cost, low cooldown abilities. There are as many ways to interrupt Chen as there are heroes in the game. For something so important to his kit, it can stand to have less counters.

This will make Chen a threat on the battlefield because his presence and positioning will mean something. “Anchored” would give Chen the ability to trade his mobility and damage (because he’s not casting) for defences in a meaningful way.

This will make him more like the original Chen before the bloat of displacements. He still won’t be as unkillable as before, but he also won’t face the problem of every new hero with a displacement countering him as hard as a character with a hard CC.
what if they gave him the movement speed but gave him the talent to become anchored at 13 or 17?

or gave him an activatable something like "Guard" or something from brewmaster tanks that let him become protected/anchored for x seconds on an x cooldown.
09/27/2018 10:10 PMPosted by CrimsonDan
what if they gave him the movement speed but gave him the talent to become anchored at 13 or 17?

or gave him an activatable something like "Guard" or something from brewmaster tanks that let him become protected/anchored for x seconds on an x cooldown.


We talked about movement speed before:

09/27/2018 06:46 PMPosted by Zim

Giving him movement speed while drinking is not going to fix the biggest problems he has and adding movespeed of any amount while drinking doesn’t help him fill a role. It encourages him not use his kit to tank for his team.


It was mentioned in the Reddit AMA that the amount of time you have to react to a knockback is, in most cases, too small to have a displacement counter on an activatable.

BlizzCooper on the AMA Reddit said:

“We’re always interested in giving players counterplay options, so it is something we will talk about internally. I do think there are a few issues though which I’ll go through:

First off, most knockbacks happen extremely quickly, too quickly for you to react once they occur in many cases. Take the ETC Face Melt example, you’d basically have to preemptively use your counter to avoid the displacement – which gets into the territory of pre-cleansing and Unstoppable effects, which we already have.”

By having it tied to an ability he already uses as a defence, the Chen player is not forced to make split second decisions to fulfill his role in supporting his team while staying alive.
Love it, and we'll presented. Make Chen great again!
09/26/2018 09:34 PMPosted by Keigami


In my opinion, an easier fix would be to allow Chen to move slowly while drinking. Having it move means it won't be interrupted by soft knockback and daze effects, and even as slow as 10% movespeed would still be enough for Chen to potentially drunkenly stagger out of the way of some skillshots.


they should reduce the leap range if they decided to let chen walk while drinking. might be too powerful especially with the leap talents
We dont need solo Chen taking forts all by himself with little/no counters... AGAIN.
Learn your history. He is countered for a reason.
I once suggested a change in his brew mechanic so his ability usage isn't relying on the at the same rate only survivability tool. Right now interupting Chen is like disabling him totally, exposing him to enemies, but if he could use his abilities independent of his brew he could still remain mobile/active in battle though his defense is in a vulnarable condition(leaving room for counterplay).

My suggestion to the changing brew mechanic was like this:
- abilities cost no brew
- at 25+ brew Chen's basic ability cooldowns are reduced by 1s
- at 50+ brew his ability power is increased by 30%
- at 75+ brew he gains a +10 armor buff
- at 100 brew he gains 1 charge and for the next 3s for a critical hit with the next ability cast
- brew would work similarly to Zarya's Energy which slowly decays if he's not using his trait frequently
- His trait would turn mainly into a defensive talent which every now and then has to be used to fuel his brew dependend bonuses and he can still manoveur using his abilities after being interupted

To the Anchored effect. Not sure how much counterplay remains if this would take effect. Also impacted are Dehaka pulls, Zarya ults(she doesn't need a indirect nerf to it), Thrall's Sundering, Falstad's Gust, Gazlowe Gravity Bomb(also no need for indirect nerf), both of Cho's ults, Mura's Haymaker, Cassia's Valkyrie. And those are only the ultimates, excluding many basic abilities. I'm afraid he would eliminate more weaknesses than having remaining interupts. I think the main problem with Chen that when he is interupted, both, his abilities and his survivability are affected negatively, that's why I suggested this above with the changed brew mechanic so that interupts still reward him to be vulnarable though he can still reposition himself, slow enemies or keep on damaging enemies(though at a lower amount). To eliminate a specific weakness Chen got his lv 7 talents, one against interupts so he can immediately use his trait again and the other gives him some immediate larger shield bonus which also allows short drinking processes and still have some major shield bonus. Brewmaster's Balance shouldn't be a too fixated talent on that tier, it has its upsides but I believe Chen player should focus less on this specific talent(I rarely play with this talent).
I like the idea of the Anchored effect. It also fits the image of the panda being resilient while chugging his brew. He doesn't care about a couple of shoves when he's on the brew.

Although, reading the post gave me another idea to improve Chen's gameplay. Here's my version:

Yrel has a choice to either wait until her abilities charge, use the ability before it gets charged, or to use the charged ability instantly by spending the cooldown of her trait. Can Chen have his trait running on a similar philosophy?

For example, Chen can have a second key which 1) activates Chen's trait, and 2) makes Chen unstoppable for the duration of that drink. The 'unstoppable' drinking will have a much longer cooldown, of course. The function of Chen's D key remains unchanged from the live game.

This gives Chen a choice to either use his trait normally, or to use it while guaranteeing full value from the trait by spending the cooldown. Chen will have a way to guarantee his drink in the most heated battles, but needs to cleverly decide on his timing. Also, make it so that people can distinguish between the two forms of trait, so that they can prevent themselves wasting CCs on Chen when he is unstoppable.
09/28/2018 03:32 AMPosted by Evildrake
To the Anchored effect. Not sure how much counterplay remains if this would take effect. Also impacted are Dehaka pulls, Zarya ults(she doesn't need a indirect nerf to it), Thrall's Sundering, Falstad's Gust, Gazlowe Gravity Bomb(also no need for indirect nerf), both of Cho's ults, Mura's Haymaker, Cassia's Valkyrie. And those are only the ultimates, excluding many basic abilities. I'm afraid he would eliminate more weaknesses than having remaining interupts.


When I tallied up the number of interrupts Anchored would stop I became very aware of this, and Muradin’s Haymaker was tricky because the tooltip reads, ‘Stun then knockback’, but in game, there is no stun before the knockback, only during. However there are a couple of points to remember:

  • The purpose of this change is to bring Chen back as an off-tank from his current half bruiser, half off-tank state that sits too weak in the middle ground like past Tyrande’s.
  • As an off-tank, you shouldn’t want to target Chen with these ults or other abilities like stitches hook for example. Cassia wants to catch backline squishies, Dehaka is looking for the same thing as well. Sundering is a long range, AoE interrupt that should be used on more important things than a tanking Chen (Mosh, Li Li Jugs, Naz Spirit, ect...).
  • Zarya Ults are only ineffective if Chen is drinking, but as soon as he stops drinking, it would pull or boop him. Let us say that Zarya puts her ult underneath a drinking Chen. In that second that Chen is not drinking (because of the remaining one second cooldown), he is affected by Zarya’s Ult and re-Anchoring won’t do him any good because he has already been moved to the center or pushed away.

  • AoE displacement like Gazlowe Bomb, Cain Lorenado, and Falstad gust wouldn’t effect Chen while he is drinking but the rest of his team will be. There was a combo a while back with Butcher’s Lamb to the slaughter and and Falstad’s Gust that would isolate the hooked hero. An Anchored Chen in a Gust would just be isolated.
  • Counterplay still exist for many of the characters who used to hard counter Chen without displacements. Uther is untouched, Muradin is still super effective without haymaker(and can still Stormbolt then Haymaker), and determined Dehaka’s and Diablo’s can still use ults before yanking him around.
  • I think the main problem with Chen that when he is interupted, both, his abilities and his survivability are affected negatively, that's why I suggested this above with the changed brew mechanic so that interupts still reward him to be vulnarable though he can still reposition himself, slow enemies or keep on damaging enemies(though at a lower amount). To eliminate a specific weakness Chen got his lvl 7 talents, one against interupts so he can immediately use his trait again and the other gives him some immediate larger shield bonus which also allows short drinking processes and still have some major shield bonus. Brewmaster's Balance shouldn't be a too fixated talent on that tier, it has its upsides but I believe Chen player should focus less on this specific talent(I rarely play with this talent).


    We’ve considered the lvl 7 talent, Purifying Brew, and with the Anchored effect we would remove the CC duration reduction and drink reset. With the number of interrupts going down, the hard CCs should leave him properly vulnerable. The CC reduction and brew reset was designed to mitigate the impact of having so many possible interrupts. It wouldn’t be needed with Anchored. We would keep the spell armor.
    Make him able to drink while on the move and make brewmasters balance baseline. Voila, Chen is playable again and not just a fat queststackingdummy for the enemy team. Fk, had a zag with 160 aa stacks by level 10 due to sololaning against our chen the other day, and thats a char he specifically was meant to hardcounter back in the days
    09/28/2018 03:08 PMPosted by nadekoLove
    I like the idea of the Anchored effect. It also fits the image of the panda being resilient while chugging his brew. He doesn't care about a couple of shoves when he's on the brew.

    Thank you my dear niece for understanding.
    09/28/2018 03:08 PMPosted by nadekoLove
    Yrel has a choice to either wait until her abilities charge, use the ability before it gets charged, or to use the charged ability instantly by spending the cooldown of her trait. Can Chen have his trait running on a similar philosophy?

    For example, Chen can have a second key which 1) activates Chen's trait, and 2) makes Chen unstoppable for the duration of that drink. The 'unstoppable' drinking will have a much longer cooldown, of course. The function of Chen's D key remains unchanged from the live game.

    This gives Chen a choice to either use his trait normally, or to use it while guaranteeing full value from the trait by spending the cooldown. Chen will have a way to guarantee his drink in the most heated battles, but needs to cleverly decide on his timing. Also, make it so that people can distinguish between the two forms of trait, so that they can prevent themselves wasting CCs on Chen when he is unstoppable.


    While it is a good idea for enabling Chen’s survivability, it doesn't help him contribute to his team.

    Yrel’s other abilities contribute to her threat and presence on the battlefield; Chen’s abilities give personal mobility (in the form of a kick), a weak slow, and moderate damage. While he is drinking his presence is reduced to the area he occupies. Making him unstoppable every so often, doesn’t make him more relevant on the battlefield.

    If you look at Johanna’s trait for example, you can control when it happens, but you maintain all abilities. For Chen, it would be difficult to judge when the clutch drink would be, and having to hit two buttons means it can’t be done as a quick reaction unlike Jo’s trait.

    With Chen, you are giving up your abilities and movement purely for shields. If he is “Anchored” every time he drinks, he now has the utility of blocking displacements for his team.
    Make him able to drink while on the move and make brewmasters balance baseline. Voila, Chen is playable again and not just a fat queststackingdummy for the enemy team a zag with 160 aa stacks by level 10 due to sololaning against our chen the other day, and thats a char he specifically was meant to hardcounter back in the days


    Let’s assume we add both Brewmaster’s Balance and the ability to drink on the move.

    What reason does the other team have play around Chen?
    Baseline Brewmaster’s Balance means that he will have higher than average hp regen at the start of the game and the movement speed increase at or below 50% brew. Drinking while moving allows him to runaway while shielding, but stuns attached to displacements will still interrupt him.

    Why should the enemy care?
    He just becomes “fat illidan” again. Those changes wouldn’t truly impact his effect on team fights and stacking AA quest won’t be much harder to complete. The most I can see is making skill shots harder to land on you but that doesn’t really help your team.

    When looking at Chen changes Zim and I are asking ourselves:
    Does this actually impact the what choosing Chen means and does it change his core feeling?
    Right now Chen feelings like a hero who’s sets himself down and becomes hard to kill but choosing him just means you have a beefy way to hit the backline. Where he drinks doesn’t mean much.
    By adding “Anchored” to his drinking he would still feel like a hero who sets himself down and becomes hard to kill but when you choose him you give your team a wall to hide behind.

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