Team voice should be default over Group

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06/09/2016 04:06 PMPosted by Cas
I was in the closed beta... what part of Jeff's explanation doesn't make sense?

In beta, they tried a default to team chat. In between games groups couldn't talk to one another because there was no match happening and therefore no "team".

Stop being a lazy puke and just switch channels.


CSGO manages this just fine, wierd how blizzard cant figure it out

Its very clearly within the realm of technical possiblity
05/25/2016 08:38 AMPosted by DrClueless
As the title says, Team voice should be the default rather than Group. If you want teams to interact, this is how to do it. Many players I've run into either forget to switch channels or are too lazy to change from Group.


I am pretty sure the things me and my party are discussing as we queue and get put in a game aren't appropriate for the team to hear. It would end up being super awkward as our personal lives spilled into the game uncontrolled.
06/10/2016 08:28 AMPosted by Stull
05/25/2016 08:38 AMPosted by DrClueless
As the title says, Team voice should be the default rather than Group. If you want teams to interact, this is how to do it. Many players I've run into either forget to switch channels or are too lazy to change from Group.


I am pretty sure the things me and my party are discussing as we queue and get put in a game aren't appropriate for the team to hear. It would end up being super awkward as our personal lives spilled into the game uncontrolled.


Well if you and your group dont manually switched to team chat, dont expect cooperation or teamwork from your mates
06/10/2016 08:32 AMPosted by ThoRax
06/10/2016 08:28 AMPosted by Stull
...

I am pretty sure the things me and my party are discussing as we queue and get put in a game aren't appropriate for the team to hear. It would end up being super awkward as our personal lives spilled into the game uncontrolled.


Well if you and your group dont manually switched to team chat, dont expect cooperation or teamwork from your mates


I haven't noticed cooperation or teamwork even when we were in team chat.
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...

No one forces anyone to talk online.

You should at least be able to hear your teammates no matter what. Your system is 100x more confusing for players, one of my friends gets really competitive and talked a lot the first days because he thought it worked like EVERY OTHER GAME OUT THERE but no, he was talking to himself/the party the whole time. Now he doesn't talk anymore because he knows the voice channels are !@#$ed up.

Are we getting a patch soon? McCree should've been fixed the first week. Are these patch times because of consoles or what?
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...


How about when you join a game having a Display like when you get invited to a group. "would you like to join Team Chat (Y/N)" I have played a lot of games in a party of 2 and didnt realize that my team could not hear me until after the game, because I forgot about the whole team and party chat thing.
Why not make it default to turn to team when in-game and turn to group chat when out of game? Wouldn't that solve all problems in this thread (both devs / teams / and solo queuers)
Well me and my friends use teamspeak anyways because if someone gets dropped or something happens the in-game voice chat would drop too but teamspeak wouldn't...
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...


the reason you got extremely negative feedback is probably because the people complaining were the more hardcore and vocal participants of the beta or whatever you tested it in.

the solution you've come up with seems to favor secluded groups rather than fostering the development of the games community.
06/10/2016 08:28 AMPosted by Stull
05/25/2016 08:38 AMPosted by DrClueless
As the title says, Team voice should be the default rather than Group. If you want teams to interact, this is how to do it. Many players I've run into either forget to switch channels or are too lazy to change from Group.


I am pretty sure the things me and my party are discussing as we queue and get put in a game aren't appropriate for the team to hear. It would end up being super awkward as our personal lives spilled into the game uncontrolled.
There are tons of third party clients that players can use to segregate themselves from team chat so that they can talk about completely useless things throughout a game that their pub players would not care to hear about. Many people already just use Discord instead of "group chat". In fact this works great because you can just leave team chat on default and be in a private voice channel with your party as well as team chat just in case some pubs use voice. If your purpose for group chat is meaningless conversation that is unrelated to the game, then why should an in game feature support that? That adds nothing constructive nor unique to the game.

Group chat is basically just a subpar replacement for traditional VOIP software. It doesnt add anything unique to the game. People have been using 3rd party apps for years and much of the time specifically for private conversations while playing. Team chat puts random people who are matched together into a common communication medium. Group chat just provides an alternative medium to traditional premade comm tools. It's not far fetched to expect groups of people who take the time to setup a premade to also setup third party voice communication for privatizing conversations. It is far fetched to expect random groups of people to do this at the beginning of every match. This is why Team Chat benefits the game so much more than Group Chat. Group chat does nothing that can't already easily be done and has been done for years without integrated chat (organize teams into VOIP), Team chat does something that is nearly impossible to do (organize randoms into VOIP). With group chat as just a private in game channel that just takes a couple fewer steps to setup than 3rd party apps, it merely supports yet another alternative to segregation. Those that took the time to setup a group need only take a tiny bit more time to login to a VOIP app with their group members. They took the time to add eachother as friends most of the time so it cant be that far fetched to expect they may of also taken the time to setup Discord or Curse (and may even have all of the players on a separate friends list or have the easy possibility of adding them to it). Team chat brings people together where there would be no feasible way to do so efficiently. Group chat splits people up while there are many other alternative methods to accomplishing the exact same task through other means.

06/10/2016 02:00 PMPosted by BitBotRobot

the reason you got extremely negative feedback is probably because the people complaining were the more hardcore and vocal participants of the beta or whatever you tested it in.

the solution you've come up with seems to favor secluded groups rather than fostering the development of the games community.
Exactly my take on the whole thing. This is supporting segregation and seclusion of players. Whether forcing everyone into the same channel is effective or not, at least it doesnt imply segregation of team members. "Premade" VOIP tools have existed for years and have jumped leapyears in functionality (Discord is becoming an amazing community tool in general). In game VOIP features should complement a lack of accessibility rather than just provide yet another alternative means to reducing accessibility (such as secluding your party members from the over all team communication). The one thing Group chat does constructively is just maintain in game communication during a queue. I dont see why this cant just be treated as a VOIP channel that is only available during the Queue, perhaps its some coding nightmare but it would be pertinent to segregate players as little as possible when there are already so many other means to do so.
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...
I've found that the biggest problem when it comes to team vs group chat is that a lot of players simply aren't even aware there are different channels or that the 'p' option even exists.

This game could benefit from some sort of in-game manual / help screen that covers stuff like the social screen and when it's OK to leave a match.
06/10/2016 02:16 PMPosted by Vermithrax
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...
I've found that the biggest problem when it comes to team vs group chat is that a lot of players simply aren't even aware there are different channels or that the 'p' option even exists.

This game could benefit from some sort of in-game manual / help screen that covers stuff like the social screen and when it's OK to leave a match.
Really, a lot of players just turn off VOIP. Bad experiences and also lack of usage can be inspiration enough for some people to just turn it off entirely. It is a proactive chore to manage muting and blocking people who annoy you. If the feature rarely gets used to begin with and then a significant portion of the time it gets misused, then most people opt out of it because they see no real benefit to maintaining the chores associated with it (like regularly hearing salty people in VOIP rather than cooperative people). Chances are that the lack of usage is more related to the implications of layered player segregation that group chat provides(You may have multiple duo queue groups on your team that all are in separate channels.)
I am sure strike teams use some kind of communication device. So why not have a hot key (like when calling for heals, or saying hello) put in the game that will have your Character make a comment about checking communication? Something like "Is everyone's radio on the right channel?" as well as splashing the chat window with the info about the team channel.
It's pretty obvious the game has a large variety of gamer type's esp. on the PC. You have MMO player's that come from WoW/MMO crowd etc. (Not all obv.) that are usually a little more thin skinned, and of course you have FPS/MOBA/General all around gamer's that are more hardened.

Like many other's I've been playing PC game's since the late 90's, and can easily see the difference today of how people take insult's, and how so many get their feeling's hurt or just take everything way to personally. Gaming can and will get your blood flowing so learning to control your breathing/heart rate helps.

Talking smack was always a part of PC gaming or trying to get into your opponent's head so that they become emotionally compromised is a classic tactic. (Do people take it to far sometime's sure..) But it's in your control to whether or not you become emotionally compromised.

So if your teammate is doing it to you who care's just move on don't give them the pleasure of engaging back.
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...


Nobody is forcing them to talk, i am however willing to "force" them to listen to things they should probably hear like players flanking us etc with the ability to mute people who do inappropriately use the system, as you ar eno doubt painfully aware the game is a MUCH better experience when players communicate, be it verbally or non-verbally, the issue is the current automatic segregation of players which immediately lowers their ability to communicate, sure we have the ping wheel but its really not going to live up to more than very basic information

I personally have zero issue with nobody answering me over voice aslong as they listen to warnings about flankers or tactical advice, i mean hell even if you forced them to just listen to team chat while still talking in group that would be a massive improvement, teamspeak does this with a feature called channel commander, it allows you to essentially listen to 2 channels worth of chatter while letting you pick which you want to talk in, and if they can manage this with their few year old client i'm sure you guys with a modern service could manage to have 2 incoming audio streams :P
05/25/2016 08:49 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We had this implemented at one point but let me explain why we ended up changing it. The majority of the time parties are formed it is on the main menu. When you're on the main menu, there is no team chat channel available because you are not in a game. So the first problem was that it felt super awkward to join a party and then not be in team chat. Obviously, we made it so that the default was to join party chat when you joined a party but then we tried switching you (as you recommend) to team chat as soon as you joined a game. We quickly discovered that switching voice chat channels on players was very jarring and no amount of interface/sound warnings made it ok. So we ultimately opted to set the defaults as they are now.

Couldn't we have an option where, like, I can make it so in a group my mic is on auto-transmit to the group channel, and if I ever want to say something to my team channel I can press my push-to-talk button and it transmits to both channels? It's basically the same as my group just using a third-party VOIP and using push-to-talk for ingame stuff, but I feel like it'd be a convenient way of doing things for the player. Just an idea.

EDIT: And you, of course, can listen to both channels nonstop. Having this sort of control would be nice but I don't know how easy/hard it would be to implement something like that.
06/10/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Just to follow up, we definitely want to encourage positive team communication. My answer earlier wasn't trying to state that things are fine. I was just pointing out that we had tried forcibly switching voice channels for players and received extremely negative feedback for doing that. What we would like to look into is trying to make players more aware that team chat is available and encourage participation.

I'm not confident forcing players into a channel will actually solve the problem of "people are not talking". I play the game a lot -- solo and grouped -- and it comes down most of the time to people not talking (even when they are in the channel). Maybe they are shy? Maybe they have nothing to say? Maybe their mic is not working? We'll try to help with all of those issues but you can't sledgehammer other players into talking over the internet... you can only gently encourage...


I dunno if those negative comments should of been weighted as heavily as you have considering how important communication is. I can't think of a logical reason why a group would not want to communicate with the other people they have been matched with. Can you?

Honestly consider that a moment. What possible reason that contributes to a positive game experience for all can you come up with to not have line of communication with the entire team. I sure can't come up with anything.

It is quite clear however that doing as these people wanted has caused a far worse consequence than they not liking being "forced" to talk with their team mates:

1. We have players that use to communicate stop doing so because of the situation.

2. We have dead silent matches for solo queued players as it is extremely rare to find a game where there is another speaking person.

3. You can have multiple groups in one match and they cant talk to each other.

Please Jeff in every game that has built in voice communication out there the entire team can hear each other. It is expected, to not have that is what is truly jarring. the worst of this is that a lot of people likely do not even realize there are channels, I sure didn't know for a good while.
I think the best solution is for press-to-talk to always be in team chat. There is no subversive channel switching in this scenario because the player is the one initiating the action; not the game. Open-mic can be group chat all the time, but when you press-to-talk it sends that broadcast to the whole team.
05/25/2016 08:55 AMPosted by qbert
Perhaps add an option to auto-switch channels?

That way players wouldn't be 'jarred' by a switch they had to manually enable. When in doubt, give players the choice.

This. I'd love to see a Blizz response that doesn't boil down to "We're spending as little as possible because we're greedy and don't care about how good our game actually is."

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