PLEASE! Nerf McCree

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I wonder how Blizzard plans to go for those balance updates, they certainly won't be beta level meddling I guess.

Their balances seemed to be effected by those tournaments plays or quality of life changes of the forums so far.
05/31/2016 10:43 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.


I'm not sure how to just nerf him? Like if stun is not a stun then how to kill Tracer/Genji or stop Genji's/Repers ultimates? Slow/blind might sound good, but then it's not stop those high mobility heroes anymore and then it's basically useless. Sure you can slow Soldier/Lucio/Symmetra etc. But I feel that McCree was not to build to counter those heroes anyway. Besides slowing those heroes that doesn't have escapes is basically same as stun. They are dead anyway. (Maybe silence + slow, but then it's almost same as stun and it's needs to be longer that 0,3sec)

I think stun is stupid concept, but right now game has decent balance and just nerfing that stun would break it. Like Tracer would be too powerful also stun is good way to get Reinhardt shield down and it's needed time to time. However I'm not sure if McCree should have ability to burst rein down.

Maybe you just should design McCree more of mid range hero and boost his left click and redesign right click + flashbang? But then again how to stop Tracer/Genji/Reaper or Mei? (Mei would also loose her main counter which would be problematic.) Also I feel Lucio and Widowmaker are more broken right now. Lucio is by far best support in the game and most pro games are just "Who has best Widowmaker wins.".

Also Winston need's more health or damage! I think that monkey should survive from Widow + Mercy comp. Right now I almost can kill Winston with Mercy which is just stupid.
05/31/2016 10:43 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.


This is a great start, but what about his ult refund issue? What about RMB->Shift->RMB dealing 840 damage? Why doesn't Flashbang friendly fire against him like all other explosives?

Like, he needs a lot more work than just messing around with his E.
Easy fix. Make him have a downtime after he throws the stun and fans the hammer, like in the way overheating works. This way rolling wont help him put another 6 bullets of damage, it will only reaload but it won't make him able to shoot again untill the downtime expires.
05/31/2016 11:12 AMPosted by Terotrous
I feel like the issue is that RMB does too much damage. If it was 20 damage a bullet (instead of 35), he could still 1 shot most squishy targets (keep in mind headshots are easy to land vs stunned targets), but higher health characters would survive at least long enough to press a button. It would also help deal with the issue where spamming RMB is often more effective than using his LMB.

Would also help make things like Torb Armor Packs relevant because that's the difference between a one shot by McCree and surviving.


His damage is actually 70 at close range per bullet lol
Honestly I think you just need to remove the reload when he rolls. The fact he can burst twice after stunning is one of the reasons his damage output is so insaine.

I see that he is a solid counter to many of the faster targets like tracer/genji, and if you nerf his stun you end up buffing the others (nerf rock and scissors become more powerful), but he can already take them down with a single burst, why does he need another?
Maybe take away his fan the hammer altogether? I know he can easily be killed by range but I don't want him to have any advantages.
05/31/2016 11:28 AMPosted by Urgot
His damage is actually 70 at close range per bullet lol


You would need Lucio's barrier as a tank to survive his combo, anything else drops dead, even then I believe Roadhog would still die.
05/31/2016 10:43 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.


I'd say the problem isn't the flashbang but rather Fan the Hammer.
a lot of people in this thread are on the right track - it's Fan the Hammer, not the flashbang necessarily. it's the RMB --> shift --> RMB combo that's adding much cancer to the game. not the flashbang necessarily.

but do the devs know this? for one, it doesnt seem Geoff is aware. in addition to having no concrete plans after 2 months of teams spamming McCrees in tourneys, this is very worrisome to me.
Agreed, this champ is ruining the fun.
Nerf the "Flash" a get him a real flash grenade, not a stun.
Or nerf the damage, the champ shouldn't be able to kill a tank in 1 second...
At the moment, his kit just compliments itself way too much. Toying around with his flashbang is a start, but I feel that that wouldn't be enough for the long term.

It's pretty much agreed upon that canceling his ultimate shouldn't refund him 50% of its charge, so I won't get into that.

I think that his flashbang not only needs a range nerf, but it needs a fundamental change in how it stuns people. Nobody likes to feel completely helpless no matter what character they play as, and so far Mcree's stun causes this. I think rather than freezing people in place for a second, the stun should only disarm you, prevent you from using any abilities, and slow your movement speed. By allowing people to still move after being hit by the stun, it would require Mcree players to be a little more conscious of how they aim.

After addressing those two aspects of his kit, we're just left his fan the hammer and rolling combination. I think that him reloading if he rolls is a pretty fun idea, so I think that that should be left intact. Fan the hammer though, could use some tweaking in the form of a slight damage nerf or being given a larger spread.
05/31/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Wally
05/31/2016 10:43 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.


I'd say the problem isn't the flashbang but rather Fan the Hammer.


But how to balance it when he is just right click hero? Nerf that and he is just useless. That is the main problem here. Redesign needed. Can't nerf something that either work or not.
Flashbang is not the problem, rightclick is. Zarya can die to a single Fan the Hammer. Only an ulted Winston (barely) survives rightclick->shift->rightclick.
05/31/2016 11:33 AMPosted by Wally
05/31/2016 10:43 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
I've been watching McCree carefully since we've released. McCree's flashbang plays an important role in being a strong option against very fast/agile teams (tracers/genjis/etc). It is also a nice tool to prevent close range devastating abilities and ultimates such as Reaper's Death Blossom.

That said, its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets such as Tanks and barriers. I don't have any concrete changes yet, but I'm going to be testing some things internally to see how he plays.


I'd say the problem isn't the flashbang but rather Fan the Hammer.


Right. I think I wasn't clear enough. By saying 'its probably a bit too good at dealing damage to higher health targets' I mean his flash/fan combo, not the flash itself. Fan is more likely to see changes than flash at this point.
Just give fan a 3 second cooldown and McCree is fine
Overwatch Weekly Meta Analysis: 5/23/16 - 5/29/16

http://www.gosugamers.net/overwatch/features/5021-icarus-weekly-meta-analysis-5-23-5-29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux61CtqGm1c&feature=youtu.be

The only hero who stayed in the Uber category surprise, McCree.
"A must have in any team comp"
05/31/2016 11:36 AMPosted by Umie

but do the devs know this? for one, it doesnt seem Geoff is aware. in addition to having no concrete plans after 2 months of teams spamming McCrees in tourneys, this is very worrisome to me.


Problem is a lot of people are saying a lot of different things. The combo is the problem, while Fan the Hammer is the majority of the problem the combo wouldn't exist without the Flashbang as good as it does now, also people complaining about the stun losing control of the character etc.

So they have to figure out the best way to make McCree effective as an Offensive character while being fair. A balance between non-comp and comp play.
McCree definitely needs to be toned down. Whether the stun duration depends on flashbang travel distance, or putting Fan The Hammer on a cooldown in relation to the roll in some way. There are certainly options to bring him more in line with other characters. Seems "off" when competitive teams (and now many quick match pub games) are running x2 McCree every map.
05/31/2016 11:36 AMPosted by Umie
a lot of people in this thread are on the right track - it's Fan the Hammer, not the flashbang necessarily. it's the RMB --> shift --> RMB combo that's adding much cancer to the game. not the flashbang necessarily.

but do the devs know this? for one, it doesnt seem Geoff is aware. in addition to having no concrete plans after 2 months of teams spamming McCrees in tourneys, this is very worrisome to me.


It's already changing. Right now they have 2 McCrees, before that they had 2 Tracers and before that two Reapers and winstons. (every time people cry for nerf... I'm not sure if beta forum is there anymore, but it was full of Tracer nerf posts) It seems that next in the line are Roadhogs. McCree is not op. He just annoying to play against.

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