McCree and Widowmaker aren't just OP

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The problem with Widow is that she is a very "complete" character who is also very dominant in several areas. I feel like Blizzard basically went and said "if you could have anything you wanted as a sniper, what would it be?" and the answers were "a great mobility tool that lets me get to a sniper perch instantly or escape from a fight", "a trap to alert me if someone tries to flank", "the ability to see through walls", and "a decent close range weapon in case I'm ever forced to fight". The problem is that giving Widow literally every tool in the universe to be perfect at her job leaves her with no real weaknesses. You could potentially nerf her sniper rifle into the ground so she becomes a solid all-rounder (not an especially great sniper but a very survivable one), but if you want her to continue to do her job as a sniper well she's likely going to need to see some of her other tools weakened.
McCree used to piss me off greatly, but not as much anymore. The only time he is frustrating currently is when you are playing a tank. The fact that he can instant reload fan, and finish off any tank, is pretty obnoxious. I used to hate flashbang, but it is what is. Some heroes can bait the flashang, some can't. Flashbang serves it's purpose. Personally, I think the instant reload on fan is unnecessary. Leave the damage as is, just take away the instant reload. As it stands, he can easily kill the heroes he is meant to kill in one fan. The way it is now, he can kill any hero with his double fan.

Widowmaker is another monster entirely. All it takes is one good Widowmaker to ruin a game entirely. The people who are meant to counter her, can't counter a smart Widow. The only one that has a real chance against her is Winston. Even then, she can still pull herself a LOT further than Winston can jump most of the time. The rate at which she can fire off full-charged shots is incredibly fast, and her body shot damage makes Tracer and Zen free kills. Slow down the charge rate and reduce the body shot damage.
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.
06/13/2016 08:35 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.


I'm guessing the Bnet launcher's downtime warning is your planned time-frame?
I just hope they don't break an iconic character that is Widowmaker.
06/13/2016 08:35 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.


TBH You should only get stunned by flashbang if you are looking at it. After all it's a flash right? And Widow.. When she ult's it be great if she emitted a giant red pulse beacon so you know where she is.
06/13/2016 08:35 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.


this is very, very good to hear Jeff. thanks. im glad Widow tweaks will make it in this week's patch.
06/13/2016 09:00 AMPosted by Shiva
I just hope they don't break an iconic character that is Widowmaker.


How pathetic are these Widow haters to downvote you .Seriously these people are retarded.
edit:haters not lovers.
06/13/2016 08:35 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.


Might be able to enjoy an Overwatch game since launch :O
06/13/2016 09:11 AMPosted by neoakropolis
06/13/2016 08:35 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We have some balance changes coming for McCree and Widowmaker. As soon as they clear testing, the changes will go live.


TBH You should only get stunned by flashbang if you are looking at it. After all it's a flash right? And Widow.. When she ult's it be great if she emitted a giant red pulse beacon so you know where she is.


The Flashbang is needed, it's McCree's overall burst damage that can even crush a tank hero, that's the problem. They are aware and it will be Fan the Hammer that get the change. I just hope they have something better in mind than just greatly reducing the damage. Rather they make it a reload nerf or make it so he only shoots 3 bullets with a Fan. Or just give Fan the hammer a separate cooldown.

The rate at which she can fire off full-charged shots is incredibly fast, and her body shot damage makes Tracer and Zen free kills. Slow down the charge rate and reduce the body shot damage.


I'm all for Widow nerfs...but Tracer is a hero that needs to be a one-shot from Widow.
Just played (yet another) game with a McCree on the opposite side who was level 9, and he E+RC'ed his team to victory.

During the Mystery Heroes weekly brawl, I spawned as McCree, this is the first time I have played him since first beta. I killed 7 people in no time flat. He's THAT easy. I get the role you want for him Blizzard but his right-click is just too easy to pull off, has no downside (basically all the bullets hit, recoil or no) and really the only way McCree gets punished is if he doesn't have his E up.
06/11/2016 04:38 PMPosted by Redgrave
The devs have said Mccree's Fan the Hammer is the one getting nerfed, the flashbang is unlikely at this point.

Which I find incredibly frustrating, because while FtH is definitively troublesome since it can shred tanks in a heartbeat, the flashbang is probably just as big, if not an even bigger issue.


Yeah, agree here. It's the combo Flash -> Fan -> Roll -> Fan that needs to be looked at, not just one power in isolation. It's a super annoying combo because if you get Flashed then there's basically nothing at all you can do about the rest.

Nerfing Fan so that it does only 300 damage is still going allow the combo above to do 620 damage if all the components hit. I honestly think that max needs to go in half again. 310 damage would allow him to kill Mei or Reaper or any other "squishy" hero at close range. How you get there -- reduce damage on the Fan or give it a cool down or both -- is up to the devs.

I was playing McCree on Mystery Heroes the other day, and I suck at him, so I was just sniping into the group trying to push the payload. It was amazing effective for just spray and pray. As good as Hanzo or Widowmaker (at least when I play them) doing the same thing. Nerfing his combo would still leave an effective player at range.
06/13/2016 09:53 AMPosted by Gojira
06/11/2016 04:38 PMPosted by Redgrave
The devs have said Mccree's Fan the Hammer is the one getting nerfed, the flashbang is unlikely at this point.

Which I find incredibly frustrating, because while FtH is definitively troublesome since it can shred tanks in a heartbeat, the flashbang is probably just as big, if not an even bigger issue.


Yeah, agree here. It's the combo Flash -> Fan -> Roll -> Fan that needs to be looked at, not just one power in isolation. It's a super annoying combo because if you get Flashed then there's basically nothing at all you can do about the rest.

Nerfing Fan so that it does only 300 damage is still going allow the combo above to do 620 damage if all the components hit. I honestly think that max needs to go in half again. 310 damage would allow him to kill Mei or Reaper or any other "squishy" hero at close range. How you get there -- reduce damage on the Fan or give it a cool down or both -- is up to the devs.

I was playing McCree on Mystery Heroes the other day, and I suck at him, so I was just sniping into the group trying to push the payload. It was amazing effective for just spray and pray. As good as Hanzo or Widowmaker (at least when I play them) doing the same thing. Nerfing his combo would still leave an effective player at range.


I'd like to see FTH have a CD much like Lucio's right click. HOWEVER, If he lands a stun and a fan, he should be able to kill Mei and reaper. They have abilities that can bait the flash and even negate the damge if he doesn't line up his shots in time.
FtH just needs a cooldown. Reducing its damage to 300 leaves the problem intact, nerfing it below 300 kills the entire point of the ability.
06/13/2016 09:00 AMPosted by Shiva
I just hope they don't break an iconic character that is Widowmaker.


Break her, like a twig!
06/13/2016 10:03 AMPosted by Buddy
I'd like to see FTH have a CD much like Lucio's right click. HOWEVER, If he lands a stun and a fan, he should be able to kill Mei and reaper. They have abilities that can bait the flash and even negate the damge if he doesn't line up his shots in time.


My first inclination was to agree. Those are dangerous heroes who need a counter.

However my second thought was that may be a problem more with Reaper's and Mei's kit than McCree. 300 points of unresistable burst damage is lethal to just about any hero in the game. Even tanks are brought to half health by that. And yet that's what you need to kill a Reaper or a Mei.

So the real issue here might be examining Reaper and Mei's kit before any further changes are made. If nothing else, reducing their hit points to 200 would bring them in line with most other heroes in the game, ignoring the rest of their kit, and 200 burst damage from McCree would be a lot less problematic for everyone.
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If you remove flashbang, he has fan the hammer and his long range abilities and his insta-reload roll. I didn't say "nerf McCree into the ground!", you either need to heavily nerf one of his capabilities or slightly nerf all of them. He has more long range capability than any non-Sniper but better close range capability than D.VA, Roadhog or Reaper, a great ultimate and his powerful flashbang. Just straight up horrid class design.


I don't know what you are smoking but McCree is bad at long range , his shot only deal 35 dmg at range because of the falloff, he has a low rate of fire and he only has 6 bullets. He's super good at medium range but not at long range. Soldier 76 does a better job at medium/long range too, the only thing that McCree is an absolute god at is close range and he'll get a nerf for this. He deserve the nerf but seriously he's not THAT good at any other range than close range.
Funny, people saying ''you should not get close to mccree or you will die, it's a intended mechanic design of the game you have to counter it''

Well guess what? It's a !@#$ty mechanic.

Seriously, anyone saying that it is a intended character mechanic to have you DIE NO MATTER WHAT if you get close to a specific hero must have a few extra chromossomes
I hope they do something with Mcree's flashbang. As if getting stunned and right clicked down isn't annoying enough, it takes ZERO skill to throw the flashbang because the hitbox IS HUUUUGGGEE. I'm tired of watching kill cams where this crack hands mcree can barely land right clicks on a stunned target, but he has no problems landing the stun because you don't have to throw it anywhere near the target.

Make it so the flashbang only stuns if it actually hits teh character model, have it take some skill.
06/13/2016 10:26 AMPosted by Gojira
06/13/2016 10:03 AMPosted by Buddy
I'd like to see FTH have a CD much like Lucio's right click. HOWEVER, If he lands a stun and a fan, he should be able to kill Mei and reaper. They have abilities that can bait the flash and even negate the damge if he doesn't line up his shots in time.


My first inclination was to agree. Those are dangerous heroes who need a counter.

However my second thought was that may be a problem more with Reaper's and Mei's kit than McCree. 300 points of unresistable burst damage is lethal to just about any hero in the game. Even tanks are brought to half health by that. And yet that's what you need to kill a Reaper or a Mei.

So the real issue here might be examining Reaper and Mei's kit before any further changes are made. If nothing else, reducing their hit points to 200 would bring them in line with most other heroes in the game, ignoring the rest of their kit, and 200 burst damage from McCree would be a lot less problematic for everyone.


Yeah, but giving it a CD makes McCree prioritize. The way it is now and if he gets a nerf to 300 max damage only) He can still flash, kill, roll, kill again just about anyone who is not a tank. He can still kill a tank if he uses the full combo.

Now give it a CD. He can flash kill one low health pool target if he does it quick enough to avoid those negating abilities, or if they were already blown during some other encounter (which is a callout that teams should be communicating). Now lets say McCree wants to take on a tank (McCree now must prioritize and decide if this is right engagement). Flash and fan for 300. Now you need to roll and hit some single shots (more skill IMO) to finish them off. Heck, maybe a teamate is helping and you finish them off together. Seems pretty balanced to me

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