WM Scope Nerf makes her feel extremely clunky and slower

General Discussion
Prev 1 2 3 4 101 Next
06/15/2016 10:59 AMPosted by Delfes
Wait, you consider that a massive change in playstyle? It's tiny for a change.


While the whole debate of this being a massive change in playstyle is an opinion, it is more so dominant as an unwanted and jarring change to most of the players who have gotten used to the quick scope mechanic and have built muscle memory around it all this time. As I said earlier, it's as if someone came and put a 1 second delay on the breaks(or acceleration, either one) of your car. It feels just like that. Can I get used to it? Most likely yes. Am I enjoying myself as much as before? No. I do not feel like she is fun to play anymore. Not because of the damage nerf. The scoping. It felt very nice. It was fun. Period.

As for the rest of your post; Please don't try to balence the game around cinematics and lore. That's not how this works. You are not affected by this change if you never played Widowmaker as most of us did. Your understanding of the problem is not as strong.

All I can say is it feels very jarring and uncomfortable and that she is no longer as fun to play.

They could take away all her damage if they wanted, but please keep her fun to control and play.
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.

To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

In general, we're not against player discovered tricks, in fact we love watching players jump in and find this cool stuff! For example, Widowmaker wasn't initially designed with the ability to be able to launch herself off a ledge while grappling up, but that one was left in because it is pretty easy to do (press space when you're approaching a ledge), works consistently, and doesn't significantly change her power level.
Fair points, but I still think the original constant scope design was both flawed and unintended, regardless of whether or not it resulted in a more enjoyable hero. The fact of the matter is that Widow's ability to play so dynamically as a result of such a silly spam mechanic was the furthest thing from "natural". It's both thematically and practically ridiculous.

If you want dynamic play style on a such a hero that already has so many strengths, then you need to make players work for it; it should require skill. There is nothing impressive or difficult about constant scoping/unscoping and, as I've said, it never felt natural to begin with. So the advantage provided was completely out of balance with the difficulty in action required to grant said advantage.

I wouldn't argue against further changes to Widowmaker in order to grant her some extra fluidity, but they certainly shouldn't come in the form of something so absurd and easy-to-use as constant scoping/unscoping.
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.

To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

In general, we're not against player discovered tricks, in fact we love watching players jump in and find this cool stuff! For example, Widowmaker wasn't initially designed with the ability to be able to launch herself off a ledge while grappling up, but that one was left in because it is pretty easy to do (press space when you're approaching a ledge), works consistently, and doesn't significantly change her power level.


Hmm, how do you feel about reloading faster by using melee attacks in order to cancel the animation?

I've also always wondered if McCree reloading instantly after a roll was designed that way for a particular reason.
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman


To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.


Thank you so much for your response. This means a lot, really.

In regards to the 0.5s shot issue, is it possible we could see re-scope speed returning with a better mechanic in place to prevent the 0.5second issue if the problem is solved in a different way than stopping shots for the remaining 0.5 seconds? It sounds like the issue needed to be solved quickly with this change, but could be solved much better to compromise between the two things if such a solution were to be thought up?
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.

To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

In general, we're not against player discovered tricks, in fact we love watching players jump in and find this cool stuff! For example, Widowmaker wasn't initially designed with the ability to be able to launch herself off a ledge while grappling up, but that one was left in because it is pretty easy to do (press space when you're approaching a ledge), works consistently, and doesn't significantly change her power level.


I greatly appreciate the feedback straight from the devs. Its amazing to see a response from someone who actually has some sort of feedback into the balancing changes in such a large game. That being said, would it be possible to change the animation canceling to the way it was, but give it some sort of penalty to the time in which the weapon is back to being fully charged? Lets say if you fire, zoom out, zoom back in, and instead of the next shot taking .5 seconds to be reloaded, it took .75 seconds? This way there was some sort of a downside to using the animation canceling. This would both address the desires of some of the players, and make it much more situational in order for the animation canceling to be useful.
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.


While on the topic... would you mind providing an explanation as to why there is such a long 'lockout' period at the end of Genji's ultimate? That isn't responsive, smooth, or responding to player input asap.
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.

To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

In general, we're not against player discovered tricks, in fact we love watching players jump in and find this cool stuff! For example, Widowmaker wasn't initially designed with the ability to be able to launch herself off a ledge while grappling up, but that one was left in because it is pretty easy to do (press space when you're approaching a ledge), works consistently, and doesn't significantly change her power level.


On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.
06/15/2016 11:45 AMPosted by Urgot
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.

To speak to Widow's scope canceling trick specifically, when I first saw it it seemed fine. The idea was that you are slowing down your fire rate slightly to gain a little more situational awareness and a small movement bump between shots, that is fine as a trade off. But the problem came about once I looked into it a bit more and realized that the recovery time (the time between shots) is 0.5 seconds, so as long as you scoped back in within 0.5 seconds of your last shot, it didn't 'cost' you anything. That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.

We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

In general, we're not against player discovered tricks, in fact we love watching players jump in and find this cool stuff! For example, Widowmaker wasn't initially designed with the ability to be able to launch herself off a ledge while grappling up, but that one was left in because it is pretty easy to do (press space when you're approaching a ledge), works consistently, and doesn't significantly change her power level.


On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.


Shhhh don't bring that up please. I like that it creates a higher skill ceiling for him. please leave it
06/15/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Noveson
06/15/2016 11:45 AMPosted by Urgot
...

On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.


Shhhh don't bring that up please. I like that it creates a higher skill ceiling for him. please leave it


So it's okay to remove a skill ceiling for everyone else as long as it's not your favorite character? How is that fair?
06/15/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Noveson
06/15/2016 11:45 AMPosted by Urgot
...

On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.


Shhhh don't bring that up please. I like that it creates a higher skill ceiling for him. please leave it


If you play Genji, you should want to talk about it, because if he is not balanced around abusing animation cancelling, he will be allowed to be stronger overall. This is exactly what Jeff was talking about.

I actually like the animation cancel, it feels badass; but I'd much rather have an overall better balanced character than keeping him weak because an exploit can make him stronger for brief periods of time.

On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.


We've had quite a few conversations about this exact thing, actually. This is a good thing to bring up because its a great example of where we're always fighting this 'make the game feel as good as possible' against 'this feels kind of broken and maybe macroable?'.

We want Quick Melee to be responsive so it is allowed to interrupt almost anything, and Genji's Dash is in a similar situation, so you end up with this kind of interrupting combo.

To be honest I'm not sure if we'll do anything about it or not, but we have talked about it quite a bit. As of now we have no direct plans to change it though.
Shhhh don't bring that up please. I like that it creates a higher skill ceiling for him. please leave it


Skill ceiling and secret mechanics are two different things.

Lets say if you fire, zoom out, zoom back in, and instead of the next shot taking .5 seconds to be reloaded, it took .75 seconds? This way there was some sort of a downside to using the animation canceling.


He mentions exactly this. It would be counter intuitive to add an extra penalty to using an exploit instead of just removing the exploit.

...
We talked about adding in some cost to force it to be more of a trade off, such as delaying the recovery time when you scope out. That would mean when you scoped back in you would have to wait the remaining 0.5s before you were allowed to start charging or shoot again. Solutions like that often feel even worse and are generally confusing, so we tend not to go those directions.

...
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.


This was the route Riot Games took with the character Riven and it was terrible. A bunch of tryhards found a way to exploit the engine and animation cancel her moves, Riot admitted it was an exploit, but they liked it so instead they balanced her around it. So now she is terrible unless you can use those animation canceling tricks.

I'm glad Blizzard didn't go that route. Good on you guys.
06/15/2016 11:56 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman

On that note, how do you feel about a large portion of Genji's power being contained in the animation cancel of RMB>Melee>Dash?

Wouldn't this also go against that same policy?

I play Genji a lot, and I can use the combo well, but It does seem odd that you have to abuse game mechanics just to be on par with other heros.


We've had quite a few conversations about this exact thing, actually. This is a good thing to bring up because its a great example of where we're always fighting this 'make the game feel as good as possible' against 'this feels kind of broken and maybe macroable?'.

We want Quick Melee to be responsive so it is allowed to interrupt almost anything, and Genji's Dash is in a similar situation, so you end up with this kind of interrupting combo.

To be honest I'm not sure if we'll do anything about it or not, but we have talked about it quite a bit. As of now we have no direct plans to change it though.


Does Quick Melee currently make reload times quicker by canceling the reload animation? I've seen Reaper players do it, but I can't say for sure if it actually is quicker, or just an illusion.
06/15/2016 11:50 AMPosted by Ryval
06/15/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Noveson
...

Shhhh don't bring that up please. I like that it creates a higher skill ceiling for him. please leave it


So it's okay to remove a skill ceiling for everyone else as long as it's not your favorite character? How is that fair?


Not at all. Reread Geoff's post. The problem is not the trick insofar as it is a trick. The problem is when you have a hero that's far more powerful than others partly because of a trick. Genji is very hard to play and is not OP in any way. Even among top players, he usually isn't the best damage dealer on a team. He is never considered a required part of a solid team. The situation with Widow was, of course, totally different.

You must try to carefully reason your way through all of this.
Thanks for the communication regarding this topic.
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
That, in turn, means the *correct* way to play her is to always scope out and back in within 0.5s of every shot, otherwise you are playing a weaker Widowmaker.


This is the part that confuses me kind of.

Doesn't this just translate into players with high skill using a high skill required mechanic to make full use of? To be ready to line up another shot in 0.5 seconds and unscope between all shots sounds insanely godly if it has 100% uptime. But I doubt that mechanic is used for the purpose of area awareness after the 0.5 second cd between shots 100% all the time. I will use it even when I'm not taking shots. It's just a area awareness thing while also being able to react quickly to peripheral vision. As humans, having 100% uptime on the usage of this track and landing shots every 0.5 seconds while using it should definitely reward the skilled player pulling it off.

Otherwise, you're putting out the message to your playerbase that if anything highly skill required is found by anyone that uses a character to their full potential, you will remove it outright.

A couple of widowmaker theorycrafters on these forums have brought up a couple alternative solutions to this that probably would suit this problem better, such as make Widowmaker unscope if she is shot, or simply make the charge time of the shots work non-linearly.

We would much rather prefer control over damage for the sake of fun gameplay and an enjoyable experience overall.
A better option would be to reduce the power up and leave the animation. There is nothing wrong with making people who use it a better widow as u might say, because it allows people to react faster. i.e dragging ur scope to a jumping phara vs unscoping and scoping again. its now near impossible to react to that kind of thing. And have you considered the oppressive nature of junkrat and phara in general? Spam at choke points while offering little counter-play at least with widow it requires you to aim and land your shots...

also mechanics which were unaccounted for have no real problem as they become part of the meta .. if you played Gunz or what ever it just raises the skill ceiling for that hero. Considering how easy some heroes are soldier, junkrat, torbjorn i wonder why its a problem ?
06/15/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Nightshade
06/15/2016 11:35 AMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Making the sure game feels responsive and smooth is very important to us. Wherever we can, we make sure that the game responds to player input asap.

However, the one situation where we have to step in and possibly slow things down is when an 'animation canceling' trick is discovered and allows players to significantly increase a characters power.

There are two main problems with just leaving these things in the game as they are.

1. This trick becomes the new balance of the hero. Lets say there is a trick that somehow allowed you to instantly complete McCree's roll instead of waiting for it to complete normally. At that point, the character is much stronger, and might suddenly be a balancing problem. The choices then becomes either fix that bug, or allow it to exist and reduce his power elsewhere. If we decide to reduce his power elsewhere, unless you know how to do this special (and often unintuitive) trick, he will never feel correctly powerful for you.

2. Learning a hero now has to include learning how to abuse these bugs. This is a huge turn off to a lot of players, and can turn a potential favorite hero into a 'will never pick'.


This was the route Riot Games took with the character Riven and it was terrible. A bunch of tryhards found a way to exploit the engine and animation cancel her moves, Riot admitted it was an exploit, but they liked it so instead they balanced her around it. So now she is terrible unless you can use those animation canceling tricks.

I'm glad Blizzard didn't go that route. Good on you guys.


I don't see how that relates to the case of widowmaker's scope fluidness.

Riots bad design decisions on balancing around an animation cancel should not influence the thought that blizzard could find a middleground and provide a better solution than completely removing the re-scope speed all together.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum