Leavers and how they effect the winners

Competitive Discussion
Prev 1 27 28 29 34 Next
07/14/2016 08:40 AMPosted by jessah
I may have missed something due to this thread being 27 pages at the moment but..

Is there a fix planned for when someone on MY team leaves, we lose, and I still lose a regular amount of rank when we were at a disadvantage?

I get if they leave in the last second or something but when it's halfway through the game..it kind of sucks. :(


...we have come full circle.
/facepalm

This is what Blizzard has been trying to remove properly...and what the past 27 pages of rage have been about. What you want "fixed" is how it worked before. People didn't like it, so they removed it. This very recent update finally did that.
If the fix works you should see less rage quitters when the match is relatively close as the incentive to quit to screw the other team over if it isn't an easy win is not there. If you are getting curb stomped then you will probably still see rage quitters but you were going to lose anyways so who cares.
07/14/2016 08:49 AMPosted by Connatic
...we have come full circle.
/facepalm

This is what Blizzard has been trying to remove properly...and what the past 27 pages of rage have been about. What you want "fixed" is how it worked before. People didn't like it, so they removed it. This very recent update finally did that.

I just made a post about this on the previous page. You cannot really say this when we never actually experienced the old system.
07/14/2016 08:33 AMPosted by Connatic
07/14/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Rhiaven
I'm glad that they're patching things for winning teams, but are there any planned changes for losing teams that suffer from leavers? I just finished a game 2v6, and dropped half a rank. Maybe its just my bad luck, but 80% of my competitive games had leavers. It would be nice if they either decreased the rank loss for people who actually stay to play, or really severely punish leavers so that they don't keep cropping up every other game.


That's how the original design was supposed to be, and everyone hated it. It recalculated the MMR loss/gain based on how many were left it the match. The winners then felt denied points because someone would leave mid match. That was like what this whole thread was about! Now that the fix is working, zero adjustments are made based on quitters throughout the match.

You can't give full points to the winners, and not take any points away from the losers because of "unfair" situations. There isn't anything more we can do besides make the separate leaver penalties more strict. Anything else can just be exploited or just wont' work. Once the dust settles and with longer seasons, leavers will just naturally drop in rank, or get banned all together. It's not different than a player just be really bad and throwing the match.


Actually, before the latest patch, losing gave pretty much the same rank deduction as it does now. So the system is removing just as much points as it was before. All that seems to have been implemented is an increase in rank for the winning team.

I agree that the rank gain for the winning team was way too minuscule, and should have been bumped up, as it is now. However, the system still feels broken, because it still leaves half the players in a game at the mercy of leavers. Even if players don't leave just to troll, they'll leave a losing game anyway, because the rank loss is the same. And the other team mates will proceed to leave, because they feel there's no point staying. Players who DO stay get double penalty, with the full rank loss and wasted time. It doesn't fully address the leaving problem.

I'm not saying that this patch is bad, because I believe the winning team should get their due. But what if winners got the full rank gain, the remaining losing team got a reduced rank loss, and leavers get extra rank loss (perhaps matching the amount deducted from the rest of his team, to prevent abuse)?
The difficulty with making a system that takes away less rank when you're in a team of leavers (or taking away less than you give in general) is one with ranking system balance.

For the sake of argument, assume in every game someone leaves, and it's a 50% chance whether it's on your team or not. In the current system, it will eventually even out -- the leavers get less rank and everyone else remains at about the same rank, assuming they weren't unlucky enough to be on the leaver side every match. But if the ones in a team with leavers lose less rank while the winners get more rank, it means everyone's rank will tend to gradually increase, and eventually the average player will be sitting in rank 70 instead of rank 50.
07/14/2016 08:59 AMPosted by Xanis
07/14/2016 08:49 AMPosted by Connatic
...we have come full circle.
/facepalm

This is what Blizzard has been trying to remove properly...and what the past 27 pages of rage have been about. What you want "fixed" is how it worked before. People didn't like it, so they removed it. This very recent update finally did that.

I just made a post about this on the previous page. You cannot really say this when we never actually experienced the old system.


Well, they claimed that's how it worked right before they tried to "fix" it. I think the issue was people thought it was unfair even when players left mid match. So instead of tweaking the last minute leaver adjustments, they just decided to remove it all together, which is what they've been trying to get right.

However, the system still feels broken, because it still leaves half the players in a game at the mercy of leavers.


This is a totally separate issue and has nothing to do with the bugs we've been dealing with. This is a debate that spans all games, not just Overwatch. The team is always at the mercy of it's other players. Look how CS:GO and DotA 2 addresses the problem, it's pretty much the same, and they get the same forum rage.

But what if winners got the full rank gain, the remaining losing team got a reduced rank loss, and leavers get extra rank loss (perhaps matching the amount deducted from the rest of his team, to prevent abuse)?


Anything beyond a extra level of punishment on the leaver could be exploited. Adjusting Ratings based on who leaves and who stays is what started this whole mess to begin with.
The solution is to allow a leaver 5 minutes to rejoin. That way even people that need a full reboot of their computer and router can get back in before a penalty. And add a pause match button that freezes everyone in place of voted by team with leaver for 60 seconds to allow time for reconnect.

Then you have harsh leaver penalties. If you leave, even because of connectivity issues it's an instant 1 hour. That way you can fix your internet and test it in quick play.

Second leave = 12 hours. You're either doing it intentionally or your internet isn't stable enough for competitive that day.

Third leave = 48 hours. A light but fair punishment that could mean you don't play all weekend.

4th leave = 7 day ban. You're either cancer to competitive or you'll need some time to schedule your internet guy to pay your house a visit.

5th leave = whole season ban.

For good behavior you are forgiven one leave for every 20-30 games you complete without leaving.

Oh and don't live update the ELO mid match to adjust for a leaver.
Well, they claimed that's how it worked right before they tried to "fix" it. I think the issue was people thought it was unfair even when players left mid match. So instead of tweaking the last minute leaver adjustments, they just decided to remove it all together, which is what they've been trying to get right.

Anything beyond a extra level of punishment on the leaver could be exploited. Adjusting Ratings based on who leaves and who stays is what started this whole mess to begin with.

The bug that was just fixed was present before their initial change, they just didn't know about it somehow (granted they didn't even know about it after the change until just now). The problem was not that the old system sucked, which is what Blizzard thought we were saying. The problem is that the bug that was just fixed was present from the get go. THAT is what started this whole mess to begin with.

Currently Blizzard has ZERO feedback from the original system since we have not actually experienced it and considering they claim to still think that is the better system, it would only make sense to revert back to that system and let us give feedback on the working system instead of a broken one.
07/14/2016 09:38 AMPosted by Serratus
The solution is to allow a leaver 5 minutes to rejoin. That way even people that need a full reboot of their computer and router can get back in before a penalty. And add a pause match button that freezes everyone in place of voted by team with leaver for 60 seconds to allow time for reconnect.

Then you have harsh leaver penalties. If you leave, even because of connectivity issues it's an instant 1 hour. That way you can fix your internet and test it in quick play.

Second leave = 12 hours. You're either doing it intentionally or your internet isn't stable enough for competitive that day.

Third leave = 48 hours. A light but fair punishment that could mean you don't play all weekend.

4th leave = 7 day ban. You're either cancer to competitive or you'll need some time to schedule your internet guy to pay your house a visit.

5th leave = whole season ban.

For good behavior you are forgiven one leave for every 20-30 games you complete without leaving.

Oh and don't live update the ELO mid match to adjust for a leaver.


It sounds to me like games stopped being fun for you at some point in your life.
07/14/2016 09:55 AMPosted by SgtAwesome

It sounds to me like games stopped being fun for you at some point in your life.


Leavers definitely suck out the fun out of the game, thats for sure.
Just had a match with a leaver on the other team after we went up 2-0 on control and received regular SR gain. Seems the fix worked.

Wish I could get back the 6 or so ranks I lost because of whatever was fixed but at least its fixed.
It's kinda interesting that we all assume that every leaver is a bad person. Power goes out, ISP's disconnect you, and 2 year old son unplugged the router.

Then we assume that because someone left, the other team is automatically the losing team. I've won a game with a man down before.

So if I'm on a team with someone leaving, I don't think I should be discredited as playing well, and possibly being the winning team until a teammate left regardless the reason. So honestly, if players have some stats behind them, the loss of xp should not be that much. And really, why is not giving the other team a loss a bad thing for the winning team?

If you think about it, Winners should stay the same, Losers of a team with players gone should not get a loss or gain in xp(or loss on the stats) and the leavers should be penalized per how many games it's happened with them. I don't think that should be too difficult.
I do find it a little disconcerting that everyone here (for the most part) was describing the EXACT same problem, and blizzard could apparently see the results of the matches on their end, but yet still took well over a week to give us a "Ohhhh, now I see what you guys are saying" response and fix.
07/14/2016 10:19 AMPosted by Riva
It's kinda interesting that we all assume that every leaver is a bad person. Power goes out, ISP's disconnect you, and 2 year old son unplugged the router.

Then we assume that because someone left, the other team is automatically the losing team. I've won a game with a man down before.

So if I'm on a team with someone leaving, I don't think I should be discredited as playing well, and possibly being the winning team until a teammate left regardless the reason. So honestly, if players have some stats behind them, the loss of xp should not be that much. And really, why is not giving the other team a loss a bad thing for the winning team?

If you think about it, Winners should stay the same, Losers of a team with players gone should not get a loss or gain in xp(or loss on the stats) and the leavers should be penalized per how many games it's happened with them. I don't think that should be too difficult.


Leaver is not necessarily a bad person, but he caused a negative impact in another 5 people. For the sake of the game we can't let that become the norm, and right now leavers are running rampant on this game.

Either you had an unfortunate connection or you like rage quitting a lot, you should still have some time out to fix your issues.
07/14/2016 10:30 AMPosted by Guldur
07/14/2016 10:19 AMPosted by Riva
It's kinda interesting that we all assume that every leaver is a bad person. Power goes out, ISP's disconnect you, and 2 year old son unplugged the router.

Then we assume that because someone left, the other team is automatically the losing team. I've won a game with a man down before.

So if I'm on a team with someone leaving, I don't think I should be discredited as playing well, and possibly being the winning team until a teammate left regardless the reason. So honestly, if players have some stats behind them, the loss of xp should not be that much. And really, why is not giving the other team a loss a bad thing for the winning team?

If you think about it, Winners should stay the same, Losers of a team with players gone should not get a loss or gain in xp(or loss on the stats) and the leavers should be penalized per how many games it's happened with them. I don't think that should be too difficult.


Leaver is not necessarily a bad person, but he caused a negative impact in another 5 people. For the sake of the game we can't let that become the norm, and right now leavers are running rampant on this game.

Either you had an unfortunate connection or you like rage quitting a lot, you should still have some time out to fix your issues.


That's basically my point. So let's classify the two leavers. 1. Good person who got hit with bad luck. They have only left when it wasn't in their hands ie: outage, isp , etc. 2. The poor loser who just leaves. Now we know number 1 isn't likely to leave multiple times in a day, or even a week unless something happens. But we know number 2 will. Should the punishment be the same? Yea, and it should be tier'd so really number 1 isn't going to feel the overall penalty of leaving, but number 2 should start to feel it based on how many games they are leaving.

The bigger point of my post was that the team faced with the leaver shouldn't be penalized. Especially if they are the better team.
So is the fix finally live or is it just on the ptr?
The problem was not that the old system sucked, which is what Blizzard thought we were saying. The problem is that the bug that was just fixed was present from the get go. THAT is what started this whole mess to begin with.


So you would be ok with potentially getting less Rating gains after a win if the other team has a quitter mid-match?

Some of the feedback was just that. They didn't want to be denied any points because a leaver on the enemy team quit. Bug or not, instead of blizzard tweaking the original system and making it more clear, they thought it best to remove the adjustments entirely.

What other competitive game makes Rank/Rating adjustments based on people quitting mid-game? How do they do it?
07/14/2016 10:54 AMPosted by Connatic
So you would be ok with potentially getting less Rating gains after a win if the other team has a quitter mid-match?

Some of the feedback was just that. They didn't want to be denied any points because a leaver on the enemy team quit. Bug or not, instead of blizzard tweaking the original system and making it more clear, they thought it best to remove the adjustments entirely.

What other competitive game makes Rank/Rating adjustments based on people quitting mid-game? How do they do it?

I don't know if I would be okay with it because I don't know how much it would change, none of us do. Obviously changing it due to people leaving in like the last minute should not affect rating gain (people trying to grief the winning team), but if someone leaves towards the beginning of the game, you don't really deserve to get full points anyway since you had an easier time winning. The feedback that was given was due to the bug, plain and simple. You cannot give feedback on a system you haven't tried yet, or well you can but it holds no weight (like people complaining about Ana before she was even on the PTR).

To quote the original post about the change they made: "the game would automatically recalculate each team’s probability of winning, taking a look at not only who left the match, but also when they left". This sounds like exactly what I explained that the later in the match that someone leaves, the less it affects the points gained/lost, which makes perfect sense. Then you have this: "Despite being more accurate, we received a lot of feedback that this recalculation just didn’t feel great and that it incentivized bad leaver behavior". In other words, the only reason they changed it was because of us giving bad feedback about the bug that was just now recently fixed, so since that issue has now been resolved, it is likely that feedback on the "more accurate" system would be much better.
I guess my point is, there was so much confusion about Skill Rating in general and how it's unclear what is actually going on. We seem to be finally at a point where the players actually believe the system is doing what the Devs say it's doing.

During this mess, they said they recognize the feedback that the system, despite being more transparent, isn't very clear. I really think we should ride this out for season 1, and maybe comeback to more fair and clear "leaver rating adjustments" in future seasons once everyone is on the same page. There were, and still are, too many contradicting complaints from players. We really need to wait for the smoke to clear, and see if they can make the Skill Rating system even more transparent first.
enemy ragequit half way through first round and...

full skill increase! half a bar.

at last!

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum