Hero stacking is cancer, stop defending it

General Discussion
Prev 1 5 6 7 11 Next
07/07/2016 08:50 AMPosted by TheCrisco
07/07/2016 08:38 AMPosted by Dolphin
Lol you ignore all my legitimate points THEN TALK ABOUT THE ONES USED AS A REFERENCE FOR UNDERSTANDING AND ACT LIKE I DIDNT MAKE ANY OTHER POINTS.

Then you have the gaul to talk about not understanding debate, as you pick only points used to give understanding, and not talk to any of my points that are MY ACTUAL ARGUMENT.

You can't be serious, you are literally engaging in the most dishonest debate tacitcs possible, and then critqueing me for referencing instances that don't fit the current situation. Of course they don't, THEY'RE METAPHORS

Unreal.

1. Two tracers aren't used because they get to the point fast. What rank are you? Seriously. What rank are you?

That's helpful, but they're used because they're so strong and mobile. The point thing is an added bonus. They can flank and take out anyone not tightly grouped extremely fast and easily, and have almost no fear of death because they have a get out of jail free mechanich.

KotH also has tons of HP packet's close to high conflict areas, tons of flanking routes, and in the heat of a choatic battle blinking around several times is extremely hard to deal with.

You don't get it, yet you think you do. It has nothing to do with the cheesing overtime that you see in payload, get that out of your head. If overtime were removed you'd see 2-3 tracer's on KotH still. (in higher rank)

2. Really? So because a charachter works well with itself, it's broken individually? You are absolutely unequivically wrong. Like, there's no situation in which this statment isn't pure bull!@#$.

Here you go, let's make a charachter.

Ability one, throws a shield of 50 hp on one character, and lasts while line of sight is on.

Ability two, heals 50 hp to all charachter's in sight.

Primary a mercy like low damage pistol.

Ultimate: Kills one charachter at random from enemy team.

Invidiually, depending on CD timers can be perfectly balanced.

Stack 6 of these guys, they're massively broken.

Like, massively broken. Like instant win broken.

As you can see, just because a charachter is strong with itself, doesn't mean individually it is imbalanced.

Christ, do you even know what a metaphor IS? I didn't ignore anything you posted, and in fact responded to your post in its entirety, including explaining why your point wasn't comparable. There was nothing to pick and choose, because you made exactly two points. I responded to exactly two points. I feel like you're just throwing wild accusations at this point, and I really don't have the patience for it. All of your "metaphors" (which, let's be honest, that's using the term more than a touch loosely) are poor, you draw irrelevant parallels, and really have no serious argument to bring to the table.

I said I didn't ignore anything you posted, and that was true, but starting with this post, expect me to ignore everything you do, because come on man, at least if I thought you were trolling I'd get a chuckle out of it, but this is just sad. You can't spell, you can't debate, you don't even realize what the words you use mean...what can you do properly?


I can actually understand balance, and the competitive game at a high level. Something you clearly cannot. I've tried every which way explaining to you how hero stacking is the problem, and you refuse to accept my explanations because of an analogy I made along with the explanations not being perfectly fitting.

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with hero stacking, and i'd like for you to understand why it's such a problem for balance, and why so many high level players hate it. But if you refuse to listen to my explanations, and can't engage with me because my spelling is off, or I don't use the best words possible, then I guess you'll just never understand.
07/07/2016 08:53 AMPosted by Jamez
07/07/2016 08:40 AMPosted by Monster

Common sense here, pros aren't going to keep running comps that lose. Usage rate is going to be comparable to win rate.


Pros....you mean the top 1 % of people playing this game ?

blizz (hopefully ) will not balance the whole game around that 1%. the average ( which lets be honest most of us on here are either average or slightly below or slightly above average ) player is what blizz should balance around, thats what i hope they are doing , but i think you might be right in the assumption that they are balancing the game around the "pros" .

that being said ...
its still not smart to assume win rate % = usage %

in comp i have a stupidly high JR usage time ..but my win rate % doesnt (14 hours played and win rate of 49%) show that with him . and vice versa i have a lowish time played on Mei ( one time ) but my win rate on her is 100%.

No one balances around faulty plays, leaving aside that average is a pretty big (undefined) range, how you do that, you balance an hero's dps around the fact that the "average" will miss half of his shots?
07/07/2016 08:55 AMPosted by Dolphin
07/07/2016 08:50 AMPosted by TheCrisco
...
Christ, do you even know what a metaphor IS? I didn't ignore anything you posted, and in fact responded to your post in its entirety, including explaining why your point wasn't comparable. There was nothing to pick and choose, because you made exactly two points. I responded to exactly two points. I feel like you're just throwing wild accusations at this point, and I really don't have the patience for it. All of your "metaphors" (which, let's be honest, that's using the term more than a touch loosely) are poor, you draw irrelevant parallels, and really have no serious argument to bring to the table.

I said I didn't ignore anything you posted, and that was true, but starting with this post, expect me to ignore everything you do, because come on man, at least if I thought you were trolling I'd get a chuckle out of it, but this is just sad. You can't spell, you can't debate, you don't even realize what the words you use mean...what can you do properly?


I can actually understand balance, and the competitive game at a high level. Something you clearly cannot. I've tried every which way explaining to you how hero stacking is the problem, and you refuse to accept my explanations because of an analogy I made along with the explanations not being perfectly fitting.

I'm sorry you're so obsessed with hero stacking, and i'd like for you to understand why it's such a problem for balance, and why so many high level players hate it. But if you refuse to listen to my explanations, and can't engage with me because my spelling is off, or I don't use the best words possible, then I guess you'll just never understand.


Ok.
I've been around here long enough to understand the two sides of the medal.
Those that are Pro Stacking are average under 50 and don't follow any tournament scene. They're afraid they'll lose their possibility to pick their mains.
Those against Stacking are average above 50 and follow the tournament scene. They're not afraid of losing mains because they can play different.
It's inevitable that stacking will go, I just want to see how long it's gonna take before Blizz folks admit it before showing any more Tracer tournaments.
I'd love to have a mode without stacking, doesn't have to be the only mode, but the option would be nice. Not because I care about balance, I just enjoy fighting with and against a variety of heroes more than than stacked teams. But maybe that's just me.
Every time (hyperbole, I know) someone argues against stacking they're like "there's 21 characters available, why not use them?" And I have to answer with the same question. You all (isn't it fun?) refer, for example, to the same KotH comp of double Lucio double Tracer double whatever. This sounds like two things to me.
1.) The enemy is straight up giving you their playbook
2.) Only 3 out of your team MAX needs to focus on countering

Lots of squishies around? Hanzo's field day. Nothing that makes Bastion's life hell? Sounds like you've already won the match to me. Tracers buzzing around? Mei both makes them easier to hit for your team and can insta-kill them with a headshot inside of their effective range with the added bonus of being able to wall a path they may have been thinking of coming from.

"But wait," I hear you say, "Nobody picks those characters in competitive, they're trash tier." To this I'll reply, "There are 21 characters in the game, use them." I'm not going to go so far as to say that removing stacking would actually reduce the representation of these niche picks because I really don't know. But that won't stop me from implying it ;3
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Mcree-> Mcree just get's shut down so easily on KotH and tracer is too mobile to pin down with flash bangs.

Winston-> they just run a reaper and then blink away as he get's two free monkey kills that dived for the tracers.

Roadhog-> same issue with reaper, but also a Zarya or two and your hook just means nothing.

Pharah-> What? You can't land shots with phara on tracer in KotH

Junkrat-> This isn't even a real suggestion.


How are you rank 63?

McCree --> This is his literal job, predict the blinks and flash/HS/FTH, Tracer dead.

Winston --> Dont dive on Tracers w/ team, wait for them to come to you or dive them on the flank, even if you dont kill them you chase them off/ force recall.

Roadhog --> Hook Aim. Tracer is dead.

Pharah --> Maybe you cant, I see people do it all the time. Predict the jumps. Or just splash damage her to death.

Junkrat --> Not a very good counter, but a decent Rat that placed a decent trap that catches a tracer, that tracer is now dead.

No single character can win a game, team play is the name of the game.
any character can kill another character. Hell, a well supported Bastion can shutdown 30 tracers trying to rush point.
I am really speechless that you are rank 63.


Mcree's literal job is hitting a flash bang at a target that teleports every half a second? I didn't know it was that easy, you're right. Why couldn't I just see, all you have to do is know where the tracer will blink ahead of time. MY bad. The counter to tracer is future sight. What was i thinking.

Winston-> I know how to play winston. You walk forward, wait for them to come to point, and then jump on them after they rewind. The problem is, the second jump on them, they still have to blinks to get away from lightning, and you're staring into a reaper who's sitting behind waiting on a pick.

Roadhog-> like i said, they run a zarya, the tracer get's shielded and you're staring into a tracer at melee range with no abilities left.
And that's assuming you can even land hook on a character that blinks every half a second. (and is a very small target)

Pharah-> no one in my games runs pharah except on the points that you can knock people into pits. If she's such a good tracer counter, i don't know why no one plays her. But again, somehow, you can just know where she'll blink, and again, somehow, also not get targeted while you're just flying above in a position to shoot at tracers.

Junkrat-> Good tracer's see a junkrat on the enemy team at the very start and just start checking for traps. They don't get caught by the traps, like ever, and the traps you set intended for them, get destroyed and wasted.

Edit: to clarify, You've presupposed future sight. And if you can know and predict where tracer will be, those guys aren't counters to her. Anyone is. You can play almost any charachter and wipe the tracer's because you can track them and shoot them the whole time.

Just play soldier, and aim their head, or hit them 2ce and rocket them.

It's not a counter, and it won't help you, because you're relying on you outplaying them. You can outplay them as any character.
Blizzard is working on it, I know. I had 2 Genji's on my team yesterday - they killed everyone without even breaking a sweat. What a bunch of losers.

Posted in memory of the great Dogsnack.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

How are you rank 63?

McCree --> This is his literal job, predict the blinks and flash/HS/FTH, Tracer dead.

Winston --> Dont dive on Tracers w/ team, wait for them to come to you or dive them on the flank, even if you dont kill them you chase them off/ force recall.

Roadhog --> Hook Aim. Tracer is dead.

Pharah --> Maybe you cant, I see people do it all the time. Predict the jumps. Or just splash damage her to death.

Junkrat --> Not a very good counter, but a decent Rat that placed a decent trap that catches a tracer, that tracer is now dead.

No single character can win a game, team play is the name of the game.
any character can kill another character. Hell, a well supported Bastion can shutdown 30 tracers trying to rush point.
I am really speechless that you are rank 63.


Mcree's literal job is hitting a flash bang at a target that teleports every half a second? I didn't know it was that easy, you're right. Why couldn't I just see, all you have to do is know where the tracer will blink ahead of time. MY bad. The counter to tracer is future sight. What was i thinking.

Winston-> I know how to play winston. You walk forward, wait for them to come to point, and then jump on them after they rewind. The problem is, the second jump on them, they still have to blinks to get away from lightning, and you're staring into a reaper who's sitting behind waiting on a pick.

Roadhog-> like i said, they run a zarya, the tracer get's shielded and you're staring into a tracer at melee range with no abilities left.
And that's assuming you can even land hook on a character that blinks every half a second. (and is a very small target)

Pharah-> no one in my games runs pharah except on the points that you can knock people into pits. If she's such a good tracer counter, i don't know why no one plays her. But again, somehow, you can just know where she'll blink, and again, somehow, also not get targeted while you're just flying above in a position to shoot at tracers.

Junkrat-> Good tracer's see a junkrat on the enemy team at the very start and just start checking for traps. They don't get caught by the traps, like ever, and the traps you set intended for them, get destroyed and wasted.


Ok.
Debating with you is like arguing with my wife's dog Jasper. I could give you everything you want and you would still bark at me.
Still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that you are rank 63 and have no idea what a counter is and cant seem to aim.
I have nothing else to say.
Clearly the best team comp involves 5x Pharah + 1x Mercy...or 4x Pharah and 2x Mercy
07/07/2016 09:01 AMPosted by Grevier
I've been around here long enough to understand the two sides of the medal.
Those that are Pro Stacking are average under 50 and don't follow any tournament scene. They're afraid they'll lose their possibility to pick their mains.
Those against Stacking are average above 50 and follow the tournament scene. They're not afraid of losing mains because they can play different.
It's inevitable that stacking will go, I just want to see how long it's gonna take before Blizz folks admit it before showing any more Tracer tournaments.


Pretty much, if you want to main a character and have fun then stick to quick play. I have no problem wanting to goof off and do whatever you want but that should stick with the less serious quick play mode. Blizzard is going to keep things as is and get the bugs worked out and most likely make the change next season (in like November).
07/07/2016 09:07 AMPosted by Spy
Clearly the best team comp involves 5x Pharah + 1x Mercy...or 4x Pharah and 2x Mercy


+1, This man knows whats going on.
I think the problem with stacking lies not in the stack itself, but the issue of countering it. ANY stack can be countered, but you have to set up that counter. A good organized team will make that stack swap when you simply don't have the time left to counter it, this is especially true on control maps when one team has to run back the point to contest.

I don't really have an answer to stacking, but i know as teams get better it's becoming a bigger problem.

Just my 2 cents...
I hate getting molested by a horde of monkeys as much as the next guy but I will not stop defending stacking as long as people keep dealing in absolutes like:

"Stacks always win"
"Literally uncounterable"
"Not fun"
"No skill involved"
"Ban all stacking"

Let's not forget that PC and console are two very different beasts - from what I understand, stacks on console are pretty much uncounterable, which is why they are being balanced separately.

Now, something like 6 Winstons defending a point in sudden death sucks, but sudden death itself sucks with or without a stacked team. In any normal situation, 6 Winstons is easily countered by a half-decent team, just like any other stack.

And what about stacks of two? It's not even that bad and there are cases where stacks actually involve skill. My friend and I like to run with two Symmetras on some maps because it cuts out the need for a healer and counters some otherwise tricky heroes very well. It is also countered pretty hard by a single Winston, so what's the problem there?

A limit of two of each hero might be a good compromise since, as we can all agree, a 6-stack of pretty much anything is just aids and does not require much skill. The two-stack rule works pretty well in brawls so why not everywhere else?
07/07/2016 08:58 AMPosted by TheBlackS

No one balances around faulty plays, leaving aside that average is a pretty big (undefined) range, how you do that, you balance an hero's dps around the fact that the "average" will miss half of his shots?


by looking at the actual numbers that blizz gets , thats why i say it dont matter what we say ...we dont have that information , no one does other than blizz.

i could sit here and type out a book about how to balance heros and such, but it really wouldnt matter since i dont have legit numbers and neither do any of us.

again i say ..what we say dont flippin matter , blizz will change the game as they see the data and based off of what that data tells them , if it shows that infact at rank 60 + matches magically have 3 tracers on KotH maps ...then they will address that , but the matches i have watched that are that high ..i dont see that , and i know in my high 40 ( 47 ) matches i dont see it , i know that in QM i dont see it, so i highly doubt they will see it in the data.
I've had the following on KOTH:

2x Lucio
2x Zarya
1x Mercy
1x Reaper

Worked out pretty well. I'm not too keen on hero stacking, but I don't think Blizzard will change it.
Watching teams compete without hero stacking reminds me of Elder Scrolls Online: a disappointment with a hollow feeling.

Everything turns to cheese; the unfortunate fact that people see it as 'strategy' is a bit sad, because more often than not, a game can be decided before you counter-pick the cheese.

Overwatch goes from a team-game with rock-paper-scissors elements, to a game of pure rock-paper-scissors. The initial encounters rely on a gamble FAR more, and when the final point is being taken, the major 'cheese' begins.

I understand that the gambling mentality makes people addicted to games, but it absolutely ruins competitive Overwatch from my perspective. Rather than "I wonder who's going to be Tracer", I go "I wonder how many Tracers they will have."

The pros lose individuality. Actually, the characters inside OW lose individuality, and that seems counter-intuitive when Blizzard put so much effort into make such a diverse cast of heroes.

This is without considering the insane effort it will take to balance hero stacking. I really hope they don't throw OW at a wall, hope evolution will begin on its own without critically analyzing what hero stacking does to the game. Maybe hero stacking will turn out fine years from now, but maybe it won't; all I see from this point in time, is that it makes watching it unenjoyable.
Its part of the game. the point of this game is to defeat the other team in what ever configuration they use. Its like football, you don't see teams telling the Vikings to stop using AP because he is to good, telling the Vikings to stop building around the run. No they find a defense and stop it.
I have played a game against all tracers. I went junk rat and just pooped out nades everywhere and watched them port right into them and die. Find a solution on your own, without asking blizzard to make an escape route for you.
There are many things wrong with it. Tracer/D.Va spam to delay the other team from finishing, winston spam to instantly smash a more balanced team comp in a push (as attackers you spawn nearby, so even if it fails you just go back to a normal comp and lose some time, but the defenders simply cannot prepare for that kind of thing, etc

It also means self-synergy in general is a thing. Winston self-synergises because his attack is AoE, one winston does slow damage in an arc and can consistently do it due to his health and mobility, two winstons do double the damage in the same arc, and cannot be quickly stopped, not least as they have two barriers they can alternate through.

So what are the arguments against hero stacking? Cheese, self-synergy, reduced hero diversity, boring experience / spectator experience.

What are the arguments against not having it? You can't replace heroes like mercy or reinhardt, some heroes without the self-synergy feel a lot less impactful, etc.

Realistically? You can balance around not having hero stacking more easily than around hero stacking.

Without double tracer / genji / zenyatta / symmetra mixes the zen / symmetra nerfs might not have even happened (though adjustments definitely would have happened). A number of heroes could be more individually powerful in principle if they were not stackable, and even if not, without stacking they would never be broken in that way.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum