Genji nerf: Devs please provide more stats

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I wish all feedback posts were like this. However, I still have to disagree with some things.

Genji isn't a huge deal in tournaments because people are always in voice chat and have flawless aim. They're very aware of Genji and his strength. Solo queuers, even at higher levels, are usually not at that level of communication or skill. This is pretty clear when you watch someone like Seagull play tournaments and then watch him play competitive. He single-handedly wipes the floor with the whole enemy team at incredibly high MMR, yet he won't always play Genji in tournaments because he knows better. Take a look at top players and count how many play Genji. Someone made a post about it a while back and it was 75 of the top 200.

Buffing his damage is a huge no no. In fact, if they did give him back his triple jump (or cancel combo), which I doubt considering what they did with Widow's scope (something that also made it from closed beta all the way past release), I would hope they gave him falloff damage like Mei as it makes no sense why a close/mid range harass hero can kill and zone out snipers and other long range heroes. The reason why a damage buff is a no no is because Genji doesn't rely on sustained damage such as a hero like 76. He relies on incredible burst. Combined with his insane mobility, he picks off the most important parts of the team at will which secures wins for his own team. As it is, it's way too easy to do this and it's why Genji is in every game I play. He's not fun to play against at all, he's sucking the fun from the game and it's become exhausting playing the "counter the Genji" game every single match.

He needed to be brought to Tracer's level as a harass hero. As it is, he's a do-it-all hero that excels in every map and game mode and barely has any real, consistent counters. I hope he's still viable and from what I've seen, he is. He's just not superman anymore. Instead of right click+melee+dash, you right click+dash. Instead of triple jumping and floating around the map to get anywhere from anywhere, you might have to blow your dash (which is an 8 sec cooldown that resets on kill). Lastly, you don't quite have as much time to decimate the entire enemy team with your ult. Also, he passively hides his head when double jumping so now he can't do it quite as often. He's not dead. He just seems dead when compared to his former, grossly overpowered self.
Needs a bump.
After playing PTR, I think they shouldn't nerf third jump, but I somewhat agree with combo nerf and feel like it's justified. However it nerfs Genji's dps even more, since ult is nerfed too (his main tool to dish out damage). I'm not saying that ult shouldn't be nerfed, because it still would be overpowered. What I suggest is adding 25 damage to Swift Strike so it will deal 75 damage, that way it will be pretty fair.
08/20/2016 05:27 AMPosted by Flux
After playing PTR, I think they shouldn't nerf third jump, but I somewhat agree with combo nerf and feel like it's justified. However it nerfs Genji's dps even more, since ult is nerfed too (his main tool to dish out damage). I'm not saying that ult shouldn't be nerfed, because it still would be overpowered. What I suggest is adding 25 damage to Swift Strike so it will deal 75 damage, that way it will be pretty fair.


Giving him more DPS to make up for the DPS he lost seems fair.
I'll leave this video here, Seagull discusses the Genji nerf. His nerf was definitely justified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JABx_lgMaZU

Edit: Here is a motivational video for Genji mains. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFkAAvDkj9k
I'll leave this video here, where Seagull discusses the Genji nerf. His nerf was definitely justified.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JABx_lgMaZU


Are you saying he wouldn't reverse the nerfs in a second if he could? (esp. the triple jump)?
Bumping. The ult nerf is more than fair but the animation cancel combo is a lot of what let him shine as a flanker. Gimping his burst without touching on his sustain leaves him in a bad spot but with the projectile nerf revert its hard to say without some testing
Also bumping. Needs to be seen.
Bump. Still the best post on this topic.
08/20/2016 10:53 PMPosted by Sleeppacific
Bump. Still the best post on this topic.

Sure, why not?
08/20/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Knives
08/20/2016 10:53 PMPosted by Sleeppacific
Bump. Still the best post on this topic.

Sure, why not?

Cause it's actual facts, not the usual "I get a godlike Genji on every single game I play"
Bump.
08/19/2016 11:47 PMPosted by skudoops
08/19/2016 11:42 PMPosted by lifeismyjoke

Your saying that "Genji is effective in KOTH/offense but not that much in defense so other heros are picked", right?

Sounds like it's balanced.


Not really, genji wiping teams and making it overwhelmingly difficult to defend is not balanced. I wasn't for all these nerfs but the ultimate nerf was definitely required.

You must not watch alot of pro tournaments, I watch them ALOT and watch their personal streams as well where they frequently talk about what happens in these matches.

The ever quoted "genji team wipe" almost NEVER happens in tournament play, the entire show is run by mccree, the REASON genji has an important role in these games is when you have an accuracy monster like taimou head shotting everyone left and right, and you have someone just as good on the other team doing the same thing, the deciding factor of the stalemate is which teams genji can force the other teams DPS to let off the rest of the team even just for a couple seconds, once that happens that team wins the push.

Go into one of their streams and ask them yourself like I did, I guarantee every single one will tell you that McCree runs the show as far as damage and team wiping goes, and that genjis role is more of an indirect action to enhance mccrees ability to do that.
08/21/2016 03:14 PMPosted by ComptonUnhh
08/19/2016 11:47 PMPosted by skudoops
...

Not really, genji wiping teams and making it overwhelmingly difficult to defend is not balanced. I wasn't for all these nerfs but the ultimate nerf was definitely required.

You must not watch alot of pro tournaments, I watch them ALOT and watch their personal streams as well where they frequently talk about what happens in these matches.

The ever quoted "genji team wipe" almost NEVER happens in tournament play, the entire show is run by mccree, the REASON genji has an important role in these games is when you have an accuracy monster like taimou head shotting everyone left and right, and you have someone just as good on the other team doing the same thing, the deciding factor of the stalemate is which teams genji can force the other teams DPS to let off the rest of the team even just for a couple seconds, once that happens that team wins the push.

Go into one of their streams and ask them yourself like I did, I guarantee every single one will tell you that McCree runs the show as far as damage and team wiping goes, and that genjis role is more of an indirect action to enhance mccrees ability to do that.

Bro, it's not a high skill based game, it's a whinny topic based game.
I'd like to bring a counterpoint which is Soulive, who held the highest rank for most of the season. He put 30 hours on both Genji and Mcree, yet his KDA and kill per min is higher with Genji.

I myself also played constantly with 70+ players and can attest that matches were being defined by the best Genji.

Genji shines at the higher level of play just before pro level. Its a great pub stomper and definitely needed balancing.

Pros have godly aim and can better coordinate to counter him, but when you remove that he simply is unstopabble on the hands of a good player. Its not a coincidende most of the top ranked players in masteroverwatch have Genji listed as their favorite hero.
yeah that's true, nerf and up has been done based mostly on feedback from scrubs who don't know how to play.

Genji nerf to mobility is one of them.
I don't understand why people are calling Genji OP, in the NA top 20 there are only 10 genji mains (and 3 secondarys). In the EU top 20 there are only 10 genji mains as well (and 3 secondarys).
If genji was truly OP, all 20 of them would be playing genji, right?
He's been picked by only 65% of the top players, which I think is fine. Something between 50% and 90% is pretty balanced, a hero is OP only when he gets past the 90% treshold.

And I think we should balance heroes around the pro scene, if a hero like genji can solowin games in soloQ it's not genji's fault, it is because it is SoloQ and it's bound to happen. Instead of whining those plebs should start stacking as 6 and imitating the pros so they can counter Genji. If you start listening to the rank 80 solo players, you won't be able to balance the game, you need to balance it around tournament play because only tournament plays matter.
In that regard you should buff Torbjorn even more so its turret is as good as rank 80 players, and you should give bastion a mini Reinhart shield that can absorb 600 damage which he can put before himself while shooting instead of his repair ability.
08/18/2016 07:59 AMPosted by lifeismyjoke
TL;DR - 2 out of 3 nerfs cannot be justified by looking into the stats. Please provide more stats so we can think about it more.

In the latest PTR:
Genji

  • Double jump no longer resets when wall climbing
  • Dash: No longer deals damage to traps like Widowmaker's Venom Mine or Junkrat's Steel Trap
  • Dash: No longer bypasses Junkrat's Steel Trap
  • Swift Strike: No longer interrupts quick melee attacks
  • Dragonblade: Duration of Genji's ultimate has been reduced from 8 seconds to 6 seconds
  • Developer Comments: Genji was a little too difficult to pin down, and these changes will balance his speed. Swift Strike no longer cancels the recovery time from a quick melee attack, so players will no longer be able to get a free melee attack before using Swift Strike. Lastly, Dragonblade's duration was long enough that it often felt too difficult to reasonably counter.

    https://playoverwatch.com/en-us/blog/20243886

    Looks like 3 things have been nerfed.

    - Ult by decreasing the ult time
    - Mobility by disabling the triple jump
    - Close quarter burst damage by disabling the close quarter combo(note that mid range combo is still possible)

    And after playing around in PTR, I felt that those 3 nerfs aren't a slight nerf, every single one of them are pretty effective on Genji's performance.

    Now we already know that there are a lot of opinions about these nerfs.

    But lets once again rethink, if these nerfs can be justified by looking into the stats.
    Considering whether these nerfs can be justified or not by looking into the stats is really important because you can see the nerfs objectively(=without bias) as possible.

    Now lets look into each of the nerfs with stats. Also if you have other stats which I couldn't provide here, I am greatly happy if you can post them.

    Ult nerf

    I think this nerf can be justified because the overall stats show that Genji's ultimate is strong compared to Reaper and Tracer in competitive matches.
  • Genji: 0.58kills/min using dragon blade
  • Reaper: 0.51kills/min using death blossom
  • Tracer: 0.36kills/min using sticky bomb
  • http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/21-genji/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/8-reaper/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/7-tracer/pc/global/mode/ranked

    As you can see, Genji has the best kills per min using ult in those 3 heros. And a flanker hero having more kills per min than a Anti tank semi flanker hero doesn't sounds like a healthy state.

    Mobility nerf

    This one is harder to think than the ult nerf because there aren't any mobility stats for each heros.

    But my theory is, if Genji has too much mobility, he would have a low death amount, ending up in a high overall Kill/Death ratio.

    Now lets look into the Kill/Death ratio stats:
  • Genji: 2.45
  • Reaper: 2.67
  • Tracer: 2.51
  • http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/21-genji/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/8-reaper/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/7-tracer/pc/global/mode/ranked

    So Genji has the lowest Kill/Death overall(including ult). Now can we say that Genji doesn't have too much mobility because his KD ratio is the lowest? I think NO. There is a possibility that Genji has too much mobility, but his kill amount is also low.

    Let's remind the developer comments I quoted in the first place:
    Genji was a little too difficult to pin down, and these changes will balance his speed.

    So it's obvious that devs thought Genji had too much mobility. But considering he has the lowest KD ratio in the 3 hero pool, I think it's safe to say that if Genji's mobility needs a nerf, his damage output should be buffed to maintain his KD ratio.

    So it looks like this nerf cant be justified because his damage output hasn't been buffed(actually got nerfed as well by disabling the close quarter combo).

    Close quarter burst damage nerf

    Before looking into the stats, I know some of the people think that this change was necessary because all the animation cancelling are going to be fixed anyway.

    But that opinion doesn't sounds fair enough. This is because Genji's combo was known just after he was released back in closed beta, and the devs did not fix it intentionally. They nerfed shuriken and dash damage instead.

    So yes the combo was unintended when Genji was released, but was not fixed intentionally later on and nerfed other aspect instead. Therefor it is easy to say that the combo disable is not a bug fix at this point.

    Now lets move on to the stats. I think we can look into the damage output stats to consider if this nerf can be justified or not.
  • Genji: 899damage/min
  • Reaper: 954damage/min
  • Tracer: 877damage/min
  • http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/21-genji/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/8-reaper/pc/global/mode/ranked
    http://masteroverwatch.com/heroes/7-tracer/pc/global/mode/ranked


    As you can see Genji's damage per min is higher than Tracer but lower than Reaper. Since he is only slightly higher than Tracer, I don't think his damage output should be decreased.

    The "well in higher rank matches Genji dominates" theory

    As you can see, the stats I posted were always the "overall" stats which includes low rank players to high rank players including pros.

    And I see some people arguing that since Genji's skill cap is high, he is useless in low rank matches but dominates especially in high rank matches.

    I think this theory can be denied as well by looking into the stats.

    There isn't any stats I can provide which only targets high rank matches, but I can provide something similar, which I think is enough to deny the theory.

    It is the pro scene pick rate. What happens in high rank matches is really similar to the pro scene tournaments. This is because most of the people in high rank matches optimizes hero pick so they can win, just like in the pro tournaments.

    So it is easy to say that if Genji is dominating in high rank matches, he's dominating in the pro scene tournament, and ending up in a really high pick rate.

    Now lets look into the pro scene pick rate:

    Current: 50% ish
    Pre-buff Zenyatta era: 15% ish

    https://www.overbuff.com/blobs/1kefH6WJFBv.png
    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56b3cac001dbae7de45090ec/t/57904280b8a79bc462909fcd/1469072017376/?format=1500w


    Looks like he is really effective compared to the pre-buff Zenyatta era. But definitely far from "dominating".
    A "dominating" hero's pick rate will end up like this:

    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56b3cac001dbae7de45090ec/t/579aa15f9de4bb9f9ba40016/1469751667675/?format=1500w

    So no it looks like he is not dominating in high rank matches.

    Conclusion

    By looking into the stats I can find right now, only 1 out of 3 nerfs can be justified.

    So please, please devs provide us some more stats behind these nerfs so we can once again rethink if these nerfs can be justified or not.

    Thank you.

    P.S.

    the bastion animated short is out! go watch! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to8yh83jlXg
    You really don't need any stats its common since. If you played any other character but genji you would understand. No other character in this game even holds a cancel to his mobility.
    genji's ult nerf is justified by:
    kills per second as OP said
    1200 ult charge for 8s ult (compared to 1500-2100 for most 6s channeled ults)

    genji's mobility nerf is justified by:
    being the only hero with 2 movement passives
    being the only hero whose movement active skill can be refreshed

    genji's combo nerf is justified by:
    torb's animation cancel was removed
    widow's animation cancel was removed
    all animation cancels are being removed
    You're leaving out a great deal in your analysis. For example, you never even mention survivability. Tracer can get hit by a stray round and killed instantly because she has low health. Reaper can wraith form out of trouble but it's not too difficult to follow and kill him if you want. Genji can get out of danger a lot more easily than Reaper and can take 50 more hp in damage than Tracer. This is just a small example but you have to look at more than just kill/death ratios and ults.

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