Roadhog Hook Inconsistencies.

General Discussion
This thread is not about balance.
It's not about whether the ability is okay or not.
It's not about whether roadhog is too strong or not, This is not a discussion of the balance on any character, it is exclusively about code, bugs and issues with consistency.

Roadhog's hook has always had problems, pulling people around corners, missing when it should have hit, hitting when it should have missed.
But while some of these have been fixed with changes to netcode, others have worsened and still others have popped up that didn't seem to exist previously.

So I thought I'd compile a list of some of the major problems, and where I can guess, their causes.
This is the second time posting this thread, as it didn't post correctly the first time. As a result, it is less heavily proof-read, let me know if I miss anything major.

In a normal, correct scenario;
Roadhog throws the hook.
The target, if hit, is stunned.
After a brief delay, the target is pulled towards roadhog.
Finally, they are positioned at roughly half of Roadhog's max melee distance, and stunned for a brief moment, allowing roadhog to shoot them and melee typically before they can respond.

But sometimes, that's not what happens, and here are a few I've noticed

1. Weird Positioning:
Sometimes roadhog's hook doesn't place people in front of him, there are a few cases where the cause is consistent, and others were both the cause and result is unpredictable.
A) Ana:- For some reason, when Ana is hooked she is positioned at the very outer edge of roadhog's melee range. This not only makes it harder to land a lethal combo, especially if RNG isn't on your side, but it actually means the ana can (on occaision) sleep dart you before your pellets land. It doesn't save her, but it does make you a sitting duck.
B) Genji:- The opposite of Ana, for some reason Genji is pulled further than other characters, often ending up inside or behind roadhog's model. This is particularly problematic as it means the roadhog doesn't have any real idea where genji has ended up, and genji is now able to spam Alt-Fires at point blank range.
C) Narrow Corridors:- When you pull a target who is in a narrow corridor, or when you yourself are, occasionally the hook will place them elsewhere in the corridor, or even just outside the corridor entirely. I am cautious to guess, but if I had to, I'd wager this is because the hook is reluctant to place people near walls and models after being pulled, and dumps them in the nearest available space, which might be a fair distance away in a narrow corridor.
D) Melee range hooks:- Normally, the hook pulls people into melee range, but even in melee range, sometimes it's important to CC close range targets. However, melee range hooks behave very strangely, often pushing characters further away from you, or not moving them at all. There's also an instance where the hook just lets go completely (Covered later).
E) Other:- Sometimes, I can't work out why a hook does what it does. Sometimes a hook will drop players halfway to roadhog, instead of in melee range. Other times they'll be placed where the hook was fired from, not where roadhog is facing/standing. Other times the target will be placed off centre without any discernible reason. I'd wager these relate to placement issues, but of all the types of position problems, these have exploded since the tickrate update.


2. Hook Breaks:

Sometimes hooks will drop early, or fail to pull at all. While in the last category (with the exception of "Other") the bugs were becoming less frequent since the patch, hook breaks are becoming far more common.
A) Favor the Shooter Clash:- Basically, favor the shooter decides that "If you see your shot land, it lands" but there is an exception, "They used a dodge ability before they saw it hit them". What this means is if a player uses a defensive ability such as a dash as the hook hits them, it may register on your screen, even play the sound, but the hook will simply break and not pull. This is especially common on tracer as she dashes frequently and the dash has virtually no delay before it activates.
While this is not necessarily a bad thing, it is important to note that this is the cause of a lot of random hook breaks.
B) Melee range pulls:- Told you I'd get back to it. In addition to moving people strangely, a specific kind of melee range pull has another problem; If you hook someone at, or near the range a hook would pull that target to, it will not move them at all. resulting in only the "Post pull" stun duration, which means roadhog will actually be locked up for longer than his target, essentially meaning roadhog stun's himself in melee range of an opponent.
C) Ramps:- I don't know why, but hooks hate ramps. And slopes. And stairs... and just about anything where y=mx+b. Occasionally targets moving up, down or near such terrain will have hooks thrown at them break without pulling.
D) Other:- as above, there's a lot of cases where hooks break without a foreseeable explanation. Particularly when the hook drops players midway through a pull, or simply never pulls a target. Particularly strange are instances where the hook deals damage, but fails to pull the target.

3. Hook Runs:
I don't have a better term to describe this, but it is the phenomenon observed when a player is hooked and continues to run, resulting in the pull doing strange things.
The most common two examples are when a player is hooked in an open space, then keeps moving, the pull then simply grinds them against the nearby wall, instead of towards you. The opposite scenario being when a player is hooked on roadhog's screen, despite being under cover on their own screen, they are immediately pulled through, over and around terrain to plonk the target down in front of roadhog.
Both are equally frustrating, and neither seem to have been remedied with the tick update patch, in fact, I would say subjectively it appears Lucio's dry humping walls is actually a more common occurrence than it was previously.

All of these issues result in the hook being unreliable for Roadhog.
Some people say he's too weak, others say he's too strong, but he cannot be balanced while his primary utility ability is so inconsistent and buggy.

I'm glad to see the work blizzard has been doing to fix netcode, so I'm hoping with a little attention, Roadhog's hook might get a little love too!
Waah, I can't no-skill one-shot people. Waah
08/13/2016 01:39 AMPosted by Exarzle
Waah, I can't no-skill one-shot people. Waah

That's not the point.
A bug is a bug. If there was a bug that meant genji randomly died if he jumped too many times, they'd still fix it before they nerf him.
Personally I'm not too fond of Roadhog, but have found him quite useful in some situations.

And I have to say that some of these problems have real impacts, especially the ones concerning melee hooks stunning Roadhog for longer than the target and the hook pulling people behind Roadhog, these are definitive problems and have to be adressed immediately. (Also the corridors and especially the corner problem)

Roadhogs hook is getting adjusted ever so slightly by every patch, but then new problems emerge, as they were not visible before.
I've experienced the wall pull thing a lot. Got me killed on Numbani when he hooked me through a bus. I got stuck on the bus for a few seconds and a Symettra killed me :(
Just try Roadhog for a game.
I have got very consistence hook result.
Might it be problem with your graphic or internet?
08/13/2016 02:27 AMPosted by Aria
Just try Roadhog for a game.
I have got very consistence hook result.
Might it be problem with your graphic or internet?

believe it or not, I actually have a lot of time on roadhog. In contrast, you have 14 games, with a total playtime of less than 2 hours.

These are common bugs, some of them are frequently talked about
Bump for attention
My guess with the Ana/Genji placement has to do with their models. I'm assuming the hook continues to pull the player until their hitbox has gotten to that "half melee range" distance. Ana's weapon typically sticks far out in front of her. So when the very tip of her gun hits that "half melee range" point, the game considers her to be where she needs to be. Genji is the opposite. His weapons (hands) don't stick out from him at all. So the game pulls him until a part of his hitbox gets to that sweet spot.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's kind of late for me.
08/13/2016 11:57 PMPosted by ScrapDraft
My guess with the Ana/Genji placement has to do with their models. I'm assuming the hook continues to pull the player until their hitbox has gotten to that "half melee range" distance. Ana's weapon typically sticks far out in front of her. So when the very tip of her gun hits that "half melee range" point, the game considers her to be where she needs to be. Genji is the opposite. His weapons (hands) don't stick out from him at all. So the game pulls him until a part of his hitbox gets to that sweet spot.

Hopefully that makes sense. It's kind of late for me.


I thought about that, and it certainly makes sense, but if that's the case, I'm surprised it's based on the model, and not on actual hitboxes.
It seems the stun from the hook impact, Roadhog's self stun, the pull and then the stun on the pulled target are 4 entirely different processes, each of which can screw up individually and each has to start at the correct time or else...
They seem to start in order though, so the timing may vary a lot depending on how long the former step lasted.

Just yesterday I managed to lodge my hook on a Rheinhard, who then proceeded to charge away from me anyways, down the Holywood High Noon street.
He finished his whole charge animation almost arriving back at his base then promptly got flung back to me.
The whole thing lasted about 10 seconds and I was stunned the entire time. But even though the first part screwed up big time, the rest of the process politely waited for Rheinhard's charge to finish and then panned out as normal (if you consider hooking somone over a third of Holywood normal).

Meanwhile Rhein was typing 'Weeeeeee' in chat, so I guess he had a fun ride at least.
It's not hit-scan, and it's not a projectile. It's a delayed hit-scan weapon. This in itself is problematic, and somewhat counter intuitive.
there are instances where you see the hook itself travel through your intended target on it's way back, target-free. and there are instances where the hit-scan kicks in and the target is on the other side of the map and a subsequent "wtf?" occurs.

Due to the nature of the mechanics, it'd be hard to adjust it in a way that feels good to play. I'd personally make the hook a projectile, so what should miss, misses and what should hit, hits.
08/14/2016 04:13 AMPosted by Vanadime
It's not hit-scan, and it's not a projectile. It's a delayed hit-scan weapon. This in itself is problematic, and somewhat counter intuitive.
there are instances where you see the hook itself travel through your intended target on it's way back, target-free. and there are instances where the hit-scan kicks in and the target is on the other side of the map and a subsequent "wtf?" occurs.

Due to the nature of the mechanics, it'd be hard to adjust it in a way that feels good to play. I'd personally make the hook a projectile, so what should miss, misses and what should hit, hits.


Why do people act like "Delayed hitscan" is some magical new mechanic.
If it was "Hitscan with a windup" there'd be no issue;
It's a perfectly normal hitscan that activates not on the button press, but after a brief delay.
hence, delayed hitscan.

There's no new bugs introduced by this, it just means you need a moment to lead targets
all of these issues i've had a LOT
ESPECIALLY the genji landing behind me, (15% of all hooks) and the melee range hooks pushing people AWAY from me (like 50% of all melee hooks >.>)

i also have 70+ hours on roadhog
08/14/2016 12:25 PMPosted by Kitty
all of these issues i've had a LOT
ESPECIALLY the genji landing behind me, (15% of all hooks) and the melee range hooks pushing people AWAY from me (like 50% of all melee hooks >.>)

i also have 70+ hours on roadhog

The genji one in particular bugs me because of how detrimental it is for the roadhog.
A genji at mid range isn't a huge threat as you can often out heal his damage, but pulling him into point blank range, inside your model, means you're almost certain to lose half your health before you can find him again.

Not to mention how hard it is to land a hook on genji in the first place
08/14/2016 12:25 PMPosted by Kitty
all of these issues i've had a LOT
ESPECIALLY the genji landing behind me, (15% of all hooks) and the melee range hooks pushing people AWAY from me (like 50% of all melee hooks >.>)

i also have 70+ hours on roadhog


This happened to me quite alot too, I have more chance of killing a Reaper than a Genji or Ana, even though Reaper has 250hp.
08/13/2016 07:27 AMPosted by Xenton
08/13/2016 02:27 AMPosted by Aria
Just try Roadhog for a game.
I have got very consistence hook result.
Might it be problem with your graphic or internet?

believe it or not, I actually have a lot of time on roadhog. In contrast, you have 14 games, with a total playtime of less than 2 hours.

These are common bugs, some of them are frequently talked about


Off-topic, but how are you guys figuring out the #xxxx to look up stats on people's posts?
08/15/2016 09:30 AMPosted by Snowpup
08/13/2016 07:27 AMPosted by Xenton
...
believe it or not, I actually have a lot of time on roadhog. In contrast, you have 14 games, with a total playtime of less than 2 hours.

These are common bugs, some of them are frequently talked about


Off-topic, but how are you guys figuring out the #xxxx to look up stats on people's posts?

Click on another player's post count.
Then click the little box that opens reading "view post history"
Up the top of the page, in the search bar, you'll find something along the lines of;
"Snowpup#11117"
Bingo Bango, there's your number.
Then just plug it into one of the overwatch stat websites.
I bumped this thread last night for attention, because all of these bugs are still in the game.

My post was deleted.

I don't know how forum moderation goes, but if it requires part of the blizzard team to do that, does that mean this post has been read? or that somebody saw the word "Bump" reported it and some underpaid intern just hit delete without reading?
Is this a bug that roadhog can hook you in melee range without even aiming at you ? ( the hook litteraly teleport on you even if on the killcam he wasn't even aiming at you )

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