We (main healers) need a response!

Competitive Discussion
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08/24/2016 06:20 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
I am loathe to ask for anecdotal evidence on this but I want to see if this matches your perception...

Ignoring Season 1 Placement (too much has changed since then so please disregard)

AND

Ignoring Season 2 PTR placement from BEFORE the reset (we changed a bunch of things)

SO...

...For those who placed a SECOND time on the PTR ****ONLY****...

(wow, that's a lot of rules...but stay with me here)

...from our data it seems like Zenyatta and Ana mains should be ok? But Mercy and Lucio might have placed lower? Does that sound accurate to what you're seeing? Or is there still the blanket statement that "all supports place lower" -- would appreciate your input if you meet the criteria above...


Fit the criteria, played with a friend. 4 losses, 1 tie, 5 wins... leavers in 2 games + we left one game. Played support in every round/match except one round of 76, my friend doing the opposite playing Zen in only one of the rounds. I placed roughly 140 points higher than him (2968).

I've heard that the hidden quick play 'MMR' plays a role in the initial stages of competitive and it would be important to know whether it has an effect on initial, hidden 'SR' before playing placement matches or if it's purely for matchmaking purposes. If the former this would certainly go a long way in explaining the discrepencies.

For clarification what I mean is... before placement does everyone effectively start at 2500, or are really good players (as a result of their performance in quick play or past seasons) playing placement matches at higher initial ratings, 2501+ etc?
Eh? Junkrat is also placing low most of time?

Then what's the common metric Lucio, Mercy and Junkrat have that's very low for most people? Main weapon Accuracy? Eliminations per shots?

Ana and Zenyatta require good aim to be effective and they are intentionally designed so you do try to actively hit the ennemy compared to Lucio and Mercy. As for Junkrat, he is the grenade spam king. Most players just spam his grenades meaninglessly around corners even when there isn't anyone coming.

Accurcy or assists might also explain why I never had problems with Mercy. My eliminations and weapon accuracy with her are through the roof as I use the gun a lot.

Like I always said previously Jeff, until you tell us which metrics you are looking at for each role, we cannot pinpoint for you where the issue is. As you said, a few random reports aren't going to help much, but if I have time I'll go ahead and play Mercy only for 10 placements this week-end with a friend going DPS. I'll play her very offensively like I usually did.
08/25/2016 05:35 AMPosted by Raerlag
08/24/2016 06:20 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
(ironically, if all of this is true, then Junkrat mains placed very low as well...FWIW)

So one of the main metrics is accuracy. It's amazing, considering that game forces you to spam chokes especially as Lucio.(sarcasm ends here)


Yeah, accuracy is a very poor metric to use in this game because the game really isn't all about accuracy. This may explain why Junkrat places very low. I guess, then hitscan heroes should have an easier time ranking-up.
Ana and Zenyatta require good aim to be effective and they are intentionally designed so you do try to actively hit the enemy compared to Lucio and Mercy. As for Junkrat, he is the grenade spam king. Most players just spam his grenades meaninglessly around corners even when there isn't anyone coming.

When i play Zen my first priority in terms of damage are tanks, cause discord + leftclick = huge damage that's shreds them with ease, plus tanks are huge so easier to hit better accuracy. And i rarely see Mercies utilizing their peashooter and considering its low accuracy its even worse: huge lead + low amount of use = stupidly low accuracy. I just wonder who was thinking that measuring all heroes on the same metrics is a good practice.
08/24/2016 06:20 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
I am loathe to ask for anecdotal evidence on this but I want to see if this matches your perception...

Ignoring Season 1 Placement (too much has changed since then so please disregard)

AND

Ignoring Season 2 PTR placement from BEFORE the reset (we changed a bunch of things)

SO...

...For those who placed a SECOND time on the PTR ****ONLY****...

(wow, that's a lot of rules...but stay with me here)

...from our data it seems like Zenyatta and Ana mains should be ok? But Mercy and Lucio might have placed lower? Does that sound accurate to what you're seeing? Or is there still the blanket statement that "all supports place lower" -- would appreciate your input if you meet the criteria above...

(ironically, if all of this is true, then Junkrat mains placed very low as well...FWIW)

Yeah I placed a lot higher than in my first placement for PTR while maining Ana. I placed gold first time and then diamond second time.
08/24/2016 06:20 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
I am loathe to ask for anecdotal evidence on this but I want to see if this matches your perception...

Ignoring Season 1 Placement (too much has changed since then so please disregard)

AND

Ignoring Season 2 PTR placement from BEFORE the reset (we changed a bunch of things)

SO...

...For those who placed a SECOND time on the PTR ****ONLY****...

(wow, that's a lot of rules...but stay with me here)

...from our data it seems like Zenyatta and Ana mains should be ok? But Mercy and Lucio might have placed lower? Does that sound accurate to what you're seeing? Or is there still the blanket statement that "all supports place lower" -- would appreciate your input if you meet the criteria above...


Lucio and Mercy's that have failed to output damage are being shafted, but I did it as Lucio and placed upper plat. I had a game where 3/6 people left and it was hard to get the numbers for performance, and I had a couple games where people were clearly making zero attempt to group up. So it was not a easy placement set, compared to the first time where i placed solidly in the diamond bracket because I had no wierd !@# matches that were abnormal for PTR or for overwatch as a hole.

However, I feel strongly that the key to placing properly as a healer lucio or mercy is to put out damage while healing. For lucio not a conflict of interest but for mercy it really is asking too much.

I do want to add that putting out damage in real competitive matches, i would say as much as 80 damage for every 120 a dps puts out, is really a key part to being effective as a healer and maintain your competitive placement. Even in a loss your damage will heavily reduce the amount of loss that is and your wins become actually viable wins.

Not sure that is a bad metric, minus mercy, as it does play into the win as a whole. If the average dps does 120+ per kill and the healers/tanks are doing the remaining 80 then kills are secured much more easily. tracers and genjis trying to pull people off from group are less of an issue, and so many things run smoother when the healers do a moderate amount of damage to help the dps secure those kills more quickly. Just need to allow mercy to trigger some sort of damage or factor that doesn't require her to ignore healing, which no other healer needs to do right now.
To be entirely honest, a lot of people say to boost DPS heroes with Mercy, but in reality, there aren't many heroes worth boosting. Most of the time, it's better for you to spam shoot and do some damage yourself.

And clearly, boosting other heroes does not seem to give 30% of the damage registered to Mercy.
Thanks for the input, guys. This is really helpful. A lot of what you're saying aligns with what we're seeing.

We've made so many changes since Season 1 that the data from that Season is not relevant anymore. Also, we made significant changes after the placement reset on the PTR. So our sample size is limited in evaluating this. It's also somewhat tainted because much of the feedback we get is either Season 1 holdover feedback or pre-"placement reset" Season 2 feedback. So trying to separate out all of the old issues from possible current new ones is challenging.

What it looks like to us is:

--Zen places fine
--Ana places fine
--Mercy places low (fix in flight)
--Lucio places really low (fix in flight)

There were other heroes (non-support) who were placing too high and too low... and there are fixes in flight for these as well. This should further help to balance things out... hopefully. We'll keep a very close eye on this and continue to make improvements as needed.
08/24/2016 06:20 PMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
I am loathe to ask for anecdotal evidence on this but I want to see if this matches your perception...

Ignoring Season 1 Placement (too much has changed since then so please disregard)

AND

Ignoring Season 2 PTR placement from BEFORE the reset (we changed a bunch of things)

SO...

...For those who placed a SECOND time on the PTR ****ONLY****...

(wow, that's a lot of rules...but stay with me here)

...from our data it seems like Zenyatta and Ana mains should be ok? But Mercy and Lucio might have placed lower? Does that sound accurate to what you're seeing? Or is there still the blanket statement that "all supports place lower" -- would appreciate your input if you meet the criteria above...

(ironically, if all of this is true, then Junkrat mains placed very low as well...FWIW)


As Ana, it seems things are fine, but that's just me.

But on a side note, can we change it so Ana can get POTGS? :P

For as many hours as I have played as Ana, I still yet to get one, even with some amazing plays. I mean I get a lot of Highlights, but not once are they picked because another one is better due to their own Ultimate.

I mean Ana's Ultimate seems like Ana is the only hero that does not benefit from it for a POTG (POTM)
08/25/2016 08:37 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the input, guys. This is really helpful. A lot of what you're saying aligns with what we're seeing.

We've made so many changes since Season 1 that the data from that Season is not relevant anymore. Also, we made significant changes after the placement reset on the PTR. So our sample size is limited in evaluating this. It's also somewhat tainted because much of the feedback we get is either Season 1 holdover feedback or pre-"placement reset" Season 2 feedback. So trying to separate out all of the old issues from possible current new ones is challenging.

What it looks like to us is:

--Zen places fine
--Ana places fine
--Mercy places low (fix in flight)
--Lucio places really low (fix in flight)

There were other heroes (non-support) who were placing too high and too low... and there are fixes in flight for these as well. This should further help to balance things out... hopefully. We'll keep a very close eye on this and continue to make improvements as needed.


So to clarify, everyone starts at the same point before placement? Two individuals who have the same placement record (wins/ties/losses) can have seemingly disparate skill rating placements and that is based solely on performances with their chosen heroes? There is no 'hidden MMR' start point?
08/25/2016 08:37 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the input, guys. This is really helpful. A lot of what you're saying aligns with what we're seeing.

We've made so many changes since Season 1 that the data from that Season is not relevant anymore. Also, we made significant changes after the placement reset on the PTR. So our sample size is limited in evaluating this. It's also somewhat tainted because much of the feedback we get is either Season 1 holdover feedback or pre-"placement reset" Season 2 feedback. So trying to separate out all of the old issues from possible current new ones is challenging.

What it looks like to us is:

--Zen places fine
--Ana places fine
--Mercy places low (fix in flight)
--Lucio places really low (fix in flight)

There were other heroes (non-support) who were placing too high and too low... and there are fixes in flight for these as well. This should further help to balance things out... hopefully. We'll keep a very close eye on this and continue to make improvements as needed.


Good stuff!

Thanks Jeff I certainly appreciate your response as well as all the work y'all are putting in and I know others do as well.
08/25/2016 08:37 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the input, guys. This is really helpful. A lot of what you're saying aligns with what we're seeing.

We've made so many changes since Season 1 that the data from that Season is not relevant anymore. Also, we made significant changes after the placement reset on the PTR. So our sample size is limited in evaluating this. It's also somewhat tainted because much of the feedback we get is either Season 1 holdover feedback or pre-"placement reset" Season 2 feedback. So trying to separate out all of the old issues from possible current new ones is challenging.

What it looks like to us is:

--Zen places fine
--Ana places fine
--Mercy places low (fix in flight)
--Lucio places really low (fix in flight)

There were other heroes (non-support) who were placing too high and too low... and there are fixes in flight for these as well. This should further help to balance things out... hopefully. We'll keep a very close eye on this and continue to make improvements as needed.


how about solo que!
It's sad to see such an objectively beautiful game tarnished by this dogmatic subjectivity and dogmatic lack of transparency regarding the competitive algorithms.
Thank you Jeff and the team!
08/25/2016 08:37 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the input, guys. This is really helpful. A lot of what you're saying aligns with what we're seeing.

We've made so many changes since Season 1 that the data from that Season is not relevant anymore. Also, we made significant changes after the placement reset on the PTR. So our sample size is limited in evaluating this. It's also somewhat tainted because much of the feedback we get is either Season 1 holdover feedback or pre-"placement reset" Season 2 feedback. So trying to separate out all of the old issues from possible current new ones is challenging.

What it looks like to us is:

--Zen places fine
--Ana places fine
--Mercy places low (fix in flight)
--Lucio places really low (fix in flight)

There were other heroes (non-support) who were placing too high and too low... and there are fixes in flight for these as well. This should further help to balance things out... hopefully. We'll keep a very close eye on this and continue to make improvements as needed.


yay thx for the hard work
08/25/2016 07:12 AMPosted by Ramza
Eh? Junkrat is also placing low most of time?

Then what's the common metric Lucio, Mercy and Junkrat have that's very low for most people? Main weapon Accuracy? Eliminations per shots?

Ana and Zenyatta require good aim to be effective and they are intentionally designed so you do try to actively hit the ennemy compared to Lucio and Mercy. As for Junkrat, he is the grenade spam king. Most players just spam his grenades meaninglessly around corners even when there isn't anyone coming.

Accurcy or assists might also explain why I never had problems with Mercy. My eliminations and weapon accuracy with her are through the roof as I use the gun a lot.

Like I always said previously Jeff, until you tell us which metrics you are looking at for each role, we cannot pinpoint for you where the issue is. As you said, a few random reports aren't going to help much, but if I have time I'll go ahead and play Mercy only for 10 placements this week-end with a friend going DPS. I'll play her very offensively like I usually did.


to be fair , i almost always get objective kills gold and get tones of kills with LUCIO . most game i have 3 golds the DPS is normally low 3-6k DPS but yeah . they should if they dont already give EXP for objective time as well. Soldier might get allot of kills but normally his objective time is !@#$ . does 2 should balance out.
08/24/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Cerprise
08/19/2016 05:33 PMPosted by Katai
I really don't understand why they don't just treat a win as a win. Why is Blizzard so obsessed with modifying rank points with arbitrary factors like damage done, healing done, and whether or not there are leavers. There does not need to be special math in play. A win is a win. This is not a problem in hundreds of PvP games with rank systems. Stop giving people less points when they win!


You really nailed it here -- the system is presumptuous and overwrought and every "fix" only causes different problems. They should take a hint from the whole history of team sports -- if the team wins then it's a win for the whole team!


As I understand it, the original closed beta was full of pros and die-hard FPS players. They were very adamant about making sure bad players wouldn't drag their ranking down, so they argued for a system that constantly measures performance. That's not a bad idea by itself, but the problem is that there's so many minute factors in every match that a system that's largely tracking Kill-to-Death ratio and weapon accuracy cannot account for.

Distracting and delaying the enemy, healing an ally at a critical moment when you know doing so assures your own death --hell. even being the tank and walking into the chokepoint and dying, but making sure to tell your team the position of the enemy's Bastion and Junkrat. These things can be critical to winning, but the system doesn't seem to account any of that. TBF, that would be insanely difficult.

Long story short, I agree. A win is a win. Even in this system, there are players that are carried to higher levels and good players that are stuck in elo hell. At least a full W/L system would make that even across the board.
08/25/2016 07:12 AMPosted by Ramza
Eh? Junkrat is also placing low most of time?

Then what's the common metric Lucio, Mercy and Junkrat have that's very low for most people? Main weapon Accuracy? Eliminations per shots?

Ana and Zenyatta require good aim to be effective and they are intentionally designed so you do try to actively hit the ennemy compared to Lucio and Mercy. As for Junkrat, he is the grenade spam king. Most players just spam his grenades meaninglessly around corners even when there isn't anyone coming.

Accurcy or assists might also explain why I never had problems with Mercy. My eliminations and weapon accuracy with her are through the roof as I use the gun a lot.

Like I always said previously Jeff, until you tell us which metrics you are looking at for each role, we cannot pinpoint for you where the issue is. As you said, a few random reports aren't going to help much, but if I have time I'll go ahead and play Mercy only for 10 placements this week-end with a friend going DPS. I'll play her very offensively like I usually did.


Right now, it seems like accuracy ties to skill rating the same across all characters. If that's the case, it would make sense that Lucio and Junkrat would place lower, since their projectiles require a fair amount of spamming shots. According to the stat tracking sites, even high-end accuracy for these characters is in the upper 28-30 percentile.

Not a good metric to compare evenly with snipers and hitscan characters with, in other words.
08/25/2016 08:50 AMPosted by Dak

So to clarify, everyone starts at the same point before placement? Two individuals who have the same placement record (wins/ties/losses) can have seemingly disparate skill rating placements and that is based solely on performances with their chosen heroes? There is no 'hidden MMR' start point?


ROFL, where have you been. They do not want previous seasons, using out dated metics and methods, to taint current seasons.

If you think about it, logically, for a hot minute it really does seem obvious. Why take all that time creating an improved system and having a downtime to tweak it and test out things if the entire thing is already tainted with data from a system they clearly identified as flawed.

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