Eichenwald feels a little bit too defense favoring.

General Discussion
This is not a rant, it's just my experience.

I've played around 30 games on Eichenwald. 16 defense and 14 offense. I won 13 out of 16 defense games and 6 out of 14 offense games. Here are some things I find that makes it harder for the offensive side.

1. The choke point at the first point of the game is too easy for defenders, some heroes can flank like Genji, Pharah, and Lucio, I assume more can as well. But there is no path or room to go through to go past the bridge for normal heroes.

2. When you finally get point A, you have to push the cart a long way to the second checkpoint, sometimes the cart is so far that it takes around 30 seconds just to get back into the fight, which leads people to just flow in and out of death.

3. The flank routes are more useful to the defenders then attackers, the defenders have plenty of time to set up and once the cart is near the second bridge the defenders can almost pop out of anywhere.
There's not much communication in soloQ. It's actually really fair when playing with full team communication. Defense is usually stomped at higher performance levels, and it's not here. It does heavily favour defence and that's kind of the point. But i do notice that it's frustrating to attack in SoloQ.
I actually think the map plays out worse for defense. The 2 things that normally make defense really good are short paths from spawn to objective sight and easily accessible high ground for defense and poor high ground accessibility for offense.

The middle portion, from where the cart starts moving and before it breaks the door, that's the only part that seems "better" for defense compared to other maps. The high ground defense for the first area, the bridge/overpass section with decent cover, and the multiple doorways before the checkpoint make it a much better mid section than, say, Route 66. It's somewhat reminiscent of Dorado's mid section, but not quite as drastic of a high ground advantage.

For the first objective, you end up with a LOT of positioning issues due to the giant tower dividing both angles of defense of the main choke. It's like the Volskaya choke on the first objective, with the giant truck in the way. If you play on the objective, the attacking team has a lot of route options and cover to minimize their exposure to spam and poke damage.

For the last objective, it lacks the "long hallway" defense with that chicane near the end. Payload maps are often won on defense due to the short time it takes to see the cart from defense spawn as it rounds the corner, and the time it takes that card to reach the end. Dorado last point rarely fizzles out for attack, and if it does, it's because of a bridge/high ground defense. Last point Eichenwalde has none of that. It's like Hollywood, but where the final point is where the cart goes outside instead of 40 yds later.
I can see both points of view, and agree with both to a degree, but I still think that it is far too easy for a good defense to halt an attack at the first choke point. Even if the attackers are able to push the point, they often don't have enough time to get the payload to the end.

This is only emphasized by the tunnel that the payload has to go though to get out of the courtyard where it was captured. There are so many height and flanking advantages for defense from there up to where the payload breaks down the door that it can be very hard to push past even a semi-organized defense.

Sure, communication is key in this game, but I have played on a defensive team in this map without coms against an attacking team with coms, and defense has still won, so clearly communication isn't the only problem.

Even the hallway with its two turns isn't that hard to defend. All three stretches of the hallway provide defense with long range shots, and any attacking hero deaths sets them back more than it does defense.

The problem I see is that the first choke point is the ONLY way to the payload. Sure there are a few toons that can avoid the choke point, but they aren't able to break the defense on their own, or even provide enough of a distraction for a half-decent defense to allow the other attackers to push through.
Hanamura had the same issue when it was in beta. There was no side entrance to point B so defense kept winning. That's what this feels like. There is only a frontal entrance for point B and so defense gets a major advantage (even has about the same run back ratio for point B).
That damn bridge to get to the cart is SUCH a choke point. There's no way around for Pharah or D.va and your best bet is to either spam bullets and projectiles through there or PRAY that you can get to that spot on the right. It's so bad. UGH. Dont get me wrong it's a beautiful map.
09/13/2016 05:39 AMPosted by Thunderraven
The problem I see is that the first choke point is the ONLY way to the payload. Sure there are a few toons that can avoid the choke point, but they aren't able to break the defense on their own, or even provide enough of a distraction for a half-decent defense to allow the other attackers to push through.

D.Va, Pharah, Genji, Lucio, Widowmaker (2x hook), Winston (2x jump), Junkrat (2x mines) and Mercy (if following someone) can take at least one of three flanking routes to Point A, you can basically make a 2/2/2 team that can avoid the chokepoint.

If a Genji can't distract the enemy team either he shouldn't be playing Genji or the defending team outclasses the attackers. Especially given that one of his available flanking routes is mostly out of sight of the defenders, letting him get behind them with a good chance of being undetected until he strikes.
That damn bridge to get to the cart is SUCH a choke point. There's no way around for Pharah or D.va and your best bet is to either spam bullets and projectiles through there or PRAY that you can get to that spot on the right. It's so bad. UGH. Dont get me wrong it's a beautiful map.


wut?!?!

You can flank around left and right to cap the point with multiple heroes while the defense jerks off at the bridge.
Don't forget that the Developers are keeping up on statistics with the win/loss of attackers and defenders and if it drifts too far from a 50/50 split then they modify the map to bring it in line with that.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20744874691?page=6#post-103

Is the post I'm referring to... so theres no need to get your panties in a bind, sometimes it might feel unfair but is ultimately still quite balanced (the poster of that thread was even saying ToA was completely unfair, hence the stats coming in to play)
As people have gotten used to the map, they're getting better at getting past the first choke point in front of the cart. However, people are still really struggling to get the cart actually into the castle, because the Defense has a ton of high ground and cover right out the first gate, and then enormous space to spread out and a relatively much shorter walk at the second bridge leading up to the castle. Maybe the map should be at least temporarily balanced more in favor of attack, with longer attack times, just to spread out the matches and give people more time to learn.
The first choke point shouldn't be much of a problem. No matter who I am going to play I usually choose genji for the start, tell the team I am going to get on the point quick to distract the defending team from the choke point. I usually get on the point about 15 seconds into the game and halfway cap it before the defending team even gets back to start attacking me. Then the rest of the team gets past the choke point, I usually die and choose who I want to play as... I dont think this strategy has ever failed at the rating I am playing.

But I would agree once getting into the castle it gets hard.
I think it's less that it favors defense, but rather the level of skill required to hold on defense is lower. So if you end up having a team on defense, and their team is even slightly better overall, winning on attack becomes really difficult. It's also really easy for defense to continually pick away at your team when they're pushing the second point and that can really draw the game out or result in a loss.
09/13/2016 06:51 AMPosted by Corobo
That damn bridge to get to the cart is SUCH a choke point. There's no way around for Pharah or D.va and your best bet is to either spam bullets and projectiles through there or PRAY that you can get to that spot on the right. It's so bad. UGH. Dont get me wrong it's a beautiful map.


D.va and Pharah have tons of routes around.

Climb the stairs outside the right hand exit and then fly over Die Zaubertrote (slightly obvious to a team that knows what it's doing on defense).

Fly over the collapsed building (less obvious to a team that knows what it's doing on defense, but risky if you go down the right side instead of the left).

I don't even think I play Eich very well yet.
I agree that this map very heavily favours defense. The choke on point A is the hardest choke in the game, no questions asked, and this is a hybrid map, so if you somehow take that nightmare of a point you can't just rush point B for the win, you have to push it all the way to the end, and most of the rest of the stage favours defense too.

I really think the answer is that the map should be somewhat redesigned as people have suggested before, where you push the cart from the start of the map to the big door, then you have to cap the throne room (so it becomes a reverse hybrid map). The first chokepoint would be far less obnoxious if you had the cart with you.
We just put a patch up that increases the payload speed. We'll see how that plays out.

I know a lot of players are concerned about the choke but that's not the problem we're seeing. The first point on Eichenwalde gets captured over 75% of the time (even though the choke feels intimidating). Out of the "Hybrid" maps, only Kings Row has a higher capture rate on the first point (82.8%). Hollywood and Numbani are down at 72.9% and 73.1%.

So hopefully the change to the payload speed will balance things out a little more without greatly sacrificing the feel of the map, which players seem to enjoy quite a bit.

We're watching this closely and if today's changes are not enough, we'll make more. What concerns us the most is: Are you having fun playing the map?
09/13/2016 10:31 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We just put a patch up that increases the payload speed. We'll see how that plays out.

I know a lot of players are concerned about the choke but that's not the problem we're seeing. The first point on Eichenwalde gets captured over 75% of the time (even though the choke feels intimidating). Out of the "Hybrid" maps, only Kings Row has a higher capture rate on the first point (82.8%). Hollywood and Numbani are down at 72.9% and 73.1%.

So hopefully the change to the payload speed will balance things out a little more without greatly sacrificing the feel of the map, which players seem to enjoy quite a bit.

We're watching this closely and if today's changes are not enough, we'll make more. What concerns us the most is: Are you having fun playing the map?


My favorite map
interesting, hopefully this speed up will help
09/13/2016 10:31 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We just put a patch up that increases the payload speed. We'll see how that plays out.

I know a lot of players are concerned about the choke but that's not the problem we're seeing. The first point on Eichenwalde gets captured over 75% of the time (even though the choke feels intimidating). Out of the "Hybrid" maps, only Kings Row has a higher capture rate on the first point (82.8%). Hollywood and Numbani are down at 72.9% and 73.1%.

So hopefully the change to the payload speed will balance things out a little more without greatly sacrificing the feel of the map, which players seem to enjoy quite a bit.

We're watching this closely and if today's changes are not enough, we'll make more. What concerns us the most is: Are you having fun playing the map?


Hello Jeff i would like to enjoy it with widow. Thank you!
09/13/2016 10:31 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We just put a patch up that increases the payload speed. We'll see how that plays out.

I know a lot of players are concerned about the choke but that's not the problem we're seeing. The first point on Eichenwalde gets captured over 75% of the time (even though the choke feels intimidating). Out of the "Hybrid" maps, only Kings Row has a higher capture rate on the first point (82.8%). Hollywood and Numbani are down at 72.9% and 73.1%.

So hopefully the change to the payload speed will balance things out a little more without greatly sacrificing the feel of the map, which players seem to enjoy quite a bit.

We're watching this closely and if today's changes are not enough, we'll make more. What concerns us the most is: Are you having fun playing the map?


It might be too soon for me, but I kind of like the level design. It's kind of a heaven map for those who like defense. I think it's fun, but I need to play it more. I like the design and ascetics around it.
09/13/2016 10:31 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We just put a patch up that increases the payload speed. We'll see how that plays out.

I know a lot of players are concerned about the choke but that's not the problem we're seeing. The first point on Eichenwalde gets captured over 75% of the time (even though the choke feels intimidating). Out of the "Hybrid" maps, only Kings Row has a higher capture rate on the first point (82.8%). Hollywood and Numbani are down at 72.9% and 73.1%.

So hopefully the change to the payload speed will balance things out a little more without greatly sacrificing the feel of the map, which players seem to enjoy quite a bit.

We're watching this closely and if today's changes are not enough, we'll make more. What concerns us the most is: Are you having fun playing the map?


It's the castle choke most have an issue with, and the /incredibly/ long walk back for attackers if they happen to get unlucky and die.

But yes, I personally love playing Eichenwald! It's a very well designed map.

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