McCree is a failure of a design(eerCcM is backwards)

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Highly Rated
McCree became a failure of the design team with all those changes since release, they managed to keep him balanced, but the design on him failed miserably, it is backwards to what they aimed it to be, and after i experienced him for over 70 hours, i'll tell you why.

  • FtH - it was designed to get almost 100% kill in close range with his FtH. Remember the times when he shredded tanks? yeah that was unintended, but it was intended to kill every 250hp and less in CQC. What is it now? compared to the original is a laughable ability that does less than a headshot if 3 shots hit(used to kill 200hp characters). So they had to nerf it, because it was unintended to kill tanks. Now it doesn't kill !@#$ and is less effective than basic attack.
  • The flashbang - has an oversight from the beginning, designed to stop targets, fails to stop them if the target jumps/is bumped/knocked/a wind blew, it is just that the old FtH used to compensate that problem with his kill potential. And since everyone knows it they exploit it by jumping all the time around McCree. You can see countless examples of it here: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269
  • The roll - it was designed to complement FtH, but since that ability is utter garbage, the roll is just there to remind you that it was once meant for a great combo that ceased to exist after FtH nerf. You can still do it, but you are better off McLeftClicking in almost every situation. Now it is better as a mobility ability rather than combo piece, which just shows how much of a design failure it became after the FtH nerf, because the mobility it provides is pathetic for it's CD and the ability slot it takes and in comparison to every other mobility ability.
  • Deadeye - great concept, looks awesome. Too bad it is not effective once players learned the game. It is the worst offensive ult, it is a statistical fact. This guy sums it up pretty well, check it out, you will have a laught too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ngqK3ekjw

So you have a character that has an amazing LMB, useless RMB and 2 skills that were built around that RMB, one of them having a design oversight(FB) and the other became obsolete with the FtH nerf. And to top it off the worst offensive ult.

TL;DR
McCree has 4 skills and 1 basic attack:

  • RMB - pathetic compared to what it was designed to do.
  • Flashbang - flawed by design, designed to stop targets, fails to do it
  • Roll - designed to complement RMB which was great at the time but now it complements a pathetic skill, which makes it garbage for a skillslot
  • Deadeye - the worst offensive ult
  • LMB - amazing

4 awfull skills and 1 amazing basic attack. What a failure.

Edit: one thing i would like to add that emerged in the discussion, taken from this post http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748826129?page=12#post-236

  • FtH that is not supposed to kill tanks yet it is only good for tanks, which is a design failure in my book.
  • FB designed for fast paced characters, fails to stop them, good against slow moving targets which don't need the FB that much in the first place, again a design failure.
  • Roll, it is good, works, nothing wrong with it. But it is made primarily as a combo for FtH, which makes it even better against tanks, which amplifies the fail. That's the problem.


If they didn't want FtH to work against tanks, why is it good primarily against them?
If they wanted FB to work against fast paced characters, why it fails to work on them specifically?


It makes no sense.

McCree is backwards. I will call him eerCcM from now on.
Highly Rated
We all thought it was High Noon : (
Highly Rated
I agree with what you have said.

Now, do you have any suggestions for solutions?
now now...

which game didn't have design fails? Even Witcher 3 did! (sliding down mountains).

^_^
Well I'm wondering if that's really a flashbang or not, because it can stun from behind.
08/31/2016 12:07 AMPosted by LargeBanana
We all thought it was High Noon : (

I wish it was really high noon :(
Poor mccree :(
I'd say if they fix the flashbang so it stops momentum, a lot of problems will go away.
08/31/2016 12:10 AMPosted by Portamento
Well I'm wondering if that's really a flashbang or not, because it can stun from behind.

I don't think any stun grenade (in real life or video games) has ever been countered by not looking at it. The pressure wave will mess up your balance and screw with your eyeball fluids no matter which direction you're facing.
I would like them to make Deadeye a bit better, especially now that it's getting kinda nerfed with the ult charge. It wouldn't be the same if they changed it entirely though. I need muh high noon.
08/31/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Ramiel
08/31/2016 12:10 AMPosted by Portamento
Well I'm wondering if that's really a flashbang or not, because it can stun from behind.

I don't think any stun grenade (in real life or video games) has ever been countered by not looking at it. The pressure wave will mess up your balance and screw with your eyeball fluids no matter which direction you're facing.


Even if you are throwing it to the floor?
08/31/2016 12:08 AMPosted by KingKitten
I agree with what you have said.

Now, do you have any suggestions for solutions?

I have ideas, but i don't really know if they will work. Even the best of the ideas can fail when implemented and tested, so i rather keep this particular topic clean of what i think should be done in order to avoid polluting it with downvotes because people could disagree on a completely out of the topic matter.

Any ideas regarding balance changes to McCree i will post in a separate topic for the reasons i stated above. This however, doesn't stop anyone else to post their ideas, and i hope they do.

I just wanted to vent it out and i have a hope that maybe the devs will see it and will consider doing something about it. They have the best environment to test the ideas, only they can do it and really see what works and what not.
McCree:
LMB - Overpowered
Everything else - Garbage
Balanced.
And your solution is?
Roll is still good for a quick reload. Fan is also still useful against tanks and 250 HPs.
His skillset might not be the most flashy but he's still the best dps hero with his left click + flashbang alone
Mccree's design is "messed up" because he began as a generalist with too many things going for him. Even now he's still very strong thanks to left click. He overshadows every other offense hero when dealing with someone with even decent hitscan aiming just due to the sheer damage he puts out with headshots- even more so thanks to Zenyatta.

The stun is a stun, and is still useful in a broad sense. If you manage to somehow catch one of the more slippery heroes that it's "intended" to counter, you can usually put one in their head to finish them.

Right mouse is still good at killing flankers from what I've experienced, and isn't that what it's meant to do? The days when you could stun a tank that could do almost nothing to dodge the flash bang and gun them down within moments were absurd.

Not sure what to say about the roll. I do agree that it doesn't seem to serve much purpose outside of a dodge. It's saved me a few times, but maybe it could be a longer distance roll to help with survival?

Deadeye is nowhere near close to being the worst offensive ult. It charges stupidly fast, allows you to kill squishier heroes like dps and heroes within moments of them crossing your sightline, and can serve as a means to disorient or scatter the opposing team. Barrage is far, far worse. The missile spread forces you to get close if you want to kill someone (including yourself), you are locked in place while using it, and 80% of the time you're just going to die to the Mccree who is pretty much always in play.

I would honestly ditch the right mouse and stun altogether and just give him abilities that complimemt him better in a midrange role, if I were to give him any changes. Nobody likes dealing with stuns anyway and it rarely gives you a kill on the flankers it's supposed to counter. Right click will get you some kills but it's bad to rely on at the end of the day. I'm not sure what I'd give him in their place, because as we've seen Mcmeta is a very tricky hero to balance without making him stupid powerful.
Are we still pretending FtH isn't still OP as hell?
Why are we still pretending instant, sudden stuns (imagine Roadhog's hook but a thousand times more broken) that result in instagibs is even remotely okay and not actually insanely OP?
Why is everyone so obsessed with it being totally okay for him to be 'lel instagib without counterplay' whenever he's in melee range?

If Flashbang lands (and let's not pretend it's hard to land whatsoever), literally 83% of the roster is instantly, straight up !@#$ed.
He's meant to be an anti-flanker, and it's totally fine for him to instead be an anti-everything-not-a-tank?

Maybe he needs changed, but he also needs nerfed hard.
He's not in EVERY game, on EVERY team, and spammed by pros, with a pick rate higher than genji, while being considered among the best hero in the game, for no raisin.
Yeah, he's a total failure... but in a OP as hell way.
Barrage is far, far worse. The missile spread forces you to get close if you want to kill someone, you are locked in place while using it, and 80% of the time you're just going to die to the Mccree who is pretty much always in play.


Barrage combos well with graviton (in which case Zarya will shield you from said McCree) and also works for surprise multikills on clustered enemies. It also breaks through shields. Deadeye on the other hand can be denied by any shield or a single Genji, and is all or nothing so if you get killed while charging it's completely wasted. PTR doesn't even let you keep 50%. The only thing it's really good at is being able to ignore healing/transcendence.
Flashbang + Fan the hammer combo is still a way bigger threat to Genji and Tracer than a simple left click.

You headshot Tracer, oh boo she recalls.

You headshot Genji, he deflects any more shots and escapes.

Flashbang + fan the hammer = Genji or Tracer dead.

Not to mention, some heroes can't be headshot from all directions, and in this case, fan the hammer still deals more damage.

Fan the hammer is called ALTERNATE fire for a reason, it isn't the PRIMARY fire, nor it should be.

Flashbang can deny several ults, delay several other ults, or just stun a tank long enough for your team to deal with it.

Combat roll isn't an amazing ability, but it still has its uses.

I want to know what statistics you looked at. I can remember that professionals never use high noon by itself, they either get boosted while behind a barrier or have support from their team.
Flashbang + Fan the hammer combo is still a way bigger threat to Genji and Tracer than a simple left click.

You headshot Tracer, oh boo she recalls.

You headshot Genji, he deflects any more shots and escapes.

Flashbang + fan the hammer = Genji or Tracer dead.

Not to mention, some heroes can't be headshot from all directions, and in this case, fan the hammer still deals more damage.

Fan the hammer is called ALTERNATE fire for a reason, it isn't the PRIMARY fire, nor it should be.

Flashbang can deny several ults, delay several other ults, or just stun a tank long enough for your team to deal with it.

I want to know what statistics you looked at. I can remember that professionals never use high noon by itself, they either get boosted while behind a barrier or have support from their team.


I know you aren't speaking from experience because flash + headshot kills Tracer.

EDIT: You have an hour on McCree

Also a common scenario is throwing a flash over Genji's deflect hitbox, in which case you might as well save ammo by killing him with a headshot + bodyshot
08/31/2016 01:15 AMPosted by zakar
Are we still pretending FtH isn't still OP as hell?
Why are we still pretending instant, sudden stuns (imagine Roadhog's hook but a thousand times more broken) that result in instagibs is even remotely okay and not actually insanely OP?
Why is everyone so obsessed with it being totally okay for him to be 'lel instagib without counterplay' whenever he's in melee range?

If Flashbang lands (and let's not pretend it's hard to land whatsoever), literally 83% of the roster is instantly, straight up !@#$ed.
He's meant to be an anti-flanker, and it's totally fine for him to instead be an anti-everything-not-a-tank?

Maybe he needs changed, but he also needs nerfed hard.
He's not in EVERY game, on EVERY team, and spammed by pros, with a pick rate higher than genji, while being considered among the best hero in the game, for no raisin.

Hog's hook is a much better ability than Flashbang. Its got more range and the stun effect. The only thing Falshbang has over it is the ability to stun multiple targets, which happens rarely. The only reason Flashbang is on a longer cooldown is because FTH was amazing.

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