Can McCree's left-click make up for the rest of his kit?

General Discussion
tl;dr (but I would recommend you do read it): Mcree seems to be performing worse than other characters even for many very good players, despite the power of his acclaimed left-click.

Edit: It seems that people are misinterpreting my thesis. Apologies for being vague. I mean to say that from experience and when I look at statistics, McCree's Left-Click doesn't seem to be enough to take up the slack in his abilities and make him viable. That is except for "pros", who I'm guessing make up only a few hundred people at most.

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You know. I don't know about you guys, but McCree's left-click potential seems pretty unobtainable for a vast majority of the players. I've played a fair amount of McCree I think, 11 hours, and I've always found that I have to be incredibly on the ball to get into the gold elims/damage. When I'm in a group with two offensive, tank, and support players, I usually find myself bronze or silver in damage and kills. Now, this may be because I'm worse than my teammates, but I have a much easier time dealing more damage and kills as Genji (post-nerf) and with many tanks.

Here's some stats of Soldier 76 and McCree from OverProgress:
http://overprogress.com/rating/Soldier:%2076/kd/31
https://overprogress.com/rating/McCree/kd/3

Please direct your attention to the interactive graph on the top right.

Notice that in every percentile shown, Soldier has consistently more kills per deaths than McCree. This may be because of his healing station and ability to escape some fights with sprint, but I'd expect McCree as a massive damage dealer and 'flank destroyer' to at least match up somewhat to Soldier's kills. Especially since people consider Soldier to be a bit weak.

Here are some more stats from OverBuff on McCree and Soldier 76:
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree?mode=competitive
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/soldier76?mode=competitive

Soldier ousts McCree in every measured way at every shown percentile except final kills and accuracy, while still having a lower death average. Seems kinda funny from where I can see it.

I only want to spread some awareness about this discrepancy. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
i would like to see some rework on his FTH
LMB is why people play him in the first place, if it would be meh, he would be ~0% pickrate (remember 18m mccree post fth?)

His stats are the worst from offense class, it was already discussed. I can copy paste them again for you

Competitive stats:

Total Kills/min
Soldier 76 2.41
Pharah 2.17
Genji 2.24
McCree 2.08 - the worst
Reaper 2.45
Tracer 2.45

Ult kills/min
Soldier 76 0.47
Pharah 0.46
Genji 0.58
McCree 0.32 - the worst
Reaper 0.51
Tracer 0.36

Kill/death ratio
Soldier 76 2.63
Pharah 2.34
Genji 2.3
McCree 1.9 - the worst
Reaper 2.66
Tracer 2.5
And one question to clear things up, are you implying the rest of his kit is kinda bad?
What people seem to not understand is that his Left-Click is only so good as the player using it, To prove my point just look at the console where precision is quite obviously not as easy to achieve. You will see very little of Mcree.

Also if skillfull players using his left-click are really such a problem then simply nerf the bodyshot damage a bit and leave the headshot as it is while buffing the rest of his kit. A class promoting skillful use should be used as a model not nerfed because it's too hard for people who are too lazy to learn.
Yeah, I'm trying to say that it doesn't seem like his left-click justifies the lack of strength in the rest of his kit.
He forced 76 and Pharah into retirement, so obviously LMB makes up for rest of his kit and more, in the hands of pro.

For casuals 76 is a better pick because he has a better kit and is easier to play.

I think flashbang is good as is, but combat roll is lackluster and can use a good buff.
09/03/2016 01:57 PMPosted by poochie
He forced 76 and Pharah into retirement, so obviously LMB makes up for rest of his kit and more, in the hands of pro.

For casuals 76 is a better pick because he has a better kit and is easier to play.

I think flashbang is good as is, but combat roll is lackluster and can use a good buff.

Then it's a case of buffing\reworking Pharah and Soldier and making them BALANCED, I know it's a concept Blizzard dosen't have a lot of talent for but still.

Make Pharah and Soldier award the player in some way for skillfull use. Hell i can think of some examples right here.

Slightly increase Pharas air traverse speed and manuverbility. Perhaps even make her have a little bit of armor to fit with the fact her model looks like she's wearing just as much armor as Reinhardt.

Make soldier's spray more reliable (accurate) and make it slightly raise it's damage upon sucessful hits as the spray goes on (Wouldn't apply to the visor). Perhaps buff the rate at which he reloads as well.
Yeah... can I have his ult stopping/ countering AoE stun flashbang on other characters who actually have bad kits? McCree is excellent.
09/03/2016 02:06 PMPosted by Didki

Then it's a case of buffing\reworking Pharah and Soldier and making them BALANCED, I know it's a concept Blizzard dosen't have a lot of talent for but still.

Make Pharah and Soldier award the player in some way for skillfull use. Hell i can think of some examples right here.

Slightly increase Pharas air traverse speed and manuverbility. Perhaps even make her have a little bit of armor to fit with the fact her model looks like she's wearing just as much armor as Reinhardt.

Make soldier's spray more reliable (accurate) and make it slightly raise it's damage upon sucessful hits as the spray goes on (Wouldn't apply to the visor). Perhaps buff the rate at which he reloads as well.


Please no bashing in this Topic, I'd like to keep it civil.

The one problem I see with giving pharah extra maneuverability or armor is that it further empowers the pharah/mercy combo. I just saw a topic about someone having trouble countering this even with histcan characters.

The specific point of this Topic is not that Soldier or Pharah are unbalanced and need buffing, but that both of these characters outperform McCree.
09/03/2016 02:10 PMPosted by Storm
Yeah... can I have his ult stopping/ countering AoE stun flashbang on other characters who actually have bad kits? McCree is excellent.
If your ult get stopped by his Flash Bang it's your fault for letting him get so close -_-
09/03/2016 02:10 PMPosted by Storm
Yeah... can I have his ult stopping/ countering AoE stun flashbang on other characters who actually have bad kits? McCree is excellent.

The one mistake people would make is ulting right next to a McCree, but at the same time, Roadhog does this just as well, with more range, a faster cooldown, and opens the target up for more damage.
09/03/2016 02:14 PMPosted by FlyingSoda
09/03/2016 02:06 PMPosted by Didki

Then it's a case of buffing\reworking Pharah and Soldier and making them BALANCED, I know it's a concept Blizzard dosen't have a lot of talent for but still.

Make Pharah and Soldier award the player in some way for skillfull use. Hell i can think of some examples right here.

Slightly increase Pharas air traverse speed and manuverbility. Perhaps even make her have a little bit of armor to fit with the fact her model looks like she's wearing just as much armor as Reinhardt.

Make soldier's spray more reliable (accurate) and make it slightly raise it's damage upon sucessful hits as the spray goes on (Wouldn't apply to the visor). Perhaps buff the rate at which he reloads as well.


Please no bashing in this Topic, I'd like to keep it civil.

The one problem I see with giving pharah extra maneuverability or armor is that it further empowers the pharah/mercy combo. I just saw a topic about someone having trouble countering this even with histcan characters.

The specific point of this Topic is not that Soldier or Pharah are unbalanced and need buffing, but that both of these characters outperform McCree.


Sorry about that, It's just sometimes my mind is just horrified by what Blizzard must be thinking, Coming up with these nerfs and buffs.
Soldier is going to have more kills per death because his kit is all about sustained damage.

That's not what McCree is for. McCree is more of an assassin. It's his job to pick off the Mercy or Zenyatta and other important targets. Killing these targets and allowing your team to push is infinitely more valuable than having the gold in elims. And he does that job way more consistently and effectively than 76

That's why he's so highly valued.
He works out for me, tho accuracy jumps wildly from 40% to 60%, but I guess that doesn't make all of us.

I would really like them to replace his ult, if it'd be any good his roll could stay as it is -clutch-dodge-reload.
Far easier to get higher K/D ratio with S76 regardless of whichever updates have been done.

Ult charges fast and is almost guaranteed 1-2 kills minimum.

Can sprint back into battle quickly.

Has rockets for a big damage hit.

Overall easier to play as he is the standard FPS character.

Common sense stuff here...
I'm happy that this is a controversial topic. People are thinking about the balancing.

I think Blizzard is basing nerfs and buffs off statistics and experimentation. I'm not going to expect them to make perfect decisions every time. It'd be impossible for them to meet such high standards.

09/03/2016 02:23 PMPosted by ten20four
Soldier is going to have more kills per death because his kit is all about sustained damage.

That's not what McCree is for. McCree is more of an assassin. It's his job to pick off the Mercy or Zenyatta and other important targets. Killing these targets and allowing your team to push is infinitely more valuable than having the gold in elims. And he does that job way more consistently and effectively than 76

That's why he's so highly valued.


I definitely agree with you on that, but it does make me curious. Would a more sturdy character like Soldier actually be better at countering flankers than McCree? My reasoning comes from this:

Soldier's forte is sustained damage, which means that once he gets a few shots off at flankers, they'll usually have to retreat and recover with a healthpack. He can periodically heal himself when he's under pressure, which makes him a lot more difficult to pick off from these flankers, and he's available to fight for extended amounts of time, which gives him more chances to fight off enemies.

McCree on the other hand can more consistently eliminate the flankers only if he can aim shots fast and well enough. Since flankers usually can get back into a fight rather quickly, pressuring them out of the fight a few times is almost as powerful as taking them out entirely. Problem is that because of his frailty from lack of good escape and healing stations, he spends a lot more time dead, avoiding certain conflicts, or running for health than Soldier. This gives flankers more chances to take out support or other squishies.
McCree is in a tolerable place right now. He's still a threat up close with Stun + FTH and his primary fire puts major attrition on players at mid-long ranges, especially enemy supports which he can quickly demolish. This is balanced out by his lack of mobility, mediocre health, and his ult which requires a lot of finesse to get the most out of.

This sounds less like a problem with the guy himself and more about the players trying to envision using him for roles that he wasn't meant for. He's a glass cannon assassin, not a frontline fighter like Soldier.
09/03/2016 03:05 PMPosted by Reimu
McCree is in a tolerable place right now. He's still a threat up close with Stun + FTH and his primary fire puts major attrition on players at mid-long ranges, especially enemy supports which he can quickly demolish. This is balanced out by his lack of mobility, mediocre health, and his ult which requires a lot of finesse to get the most out of.

This sounds less like a problem with the guy himself and more about the players trying to envision using him for roles that he wasn't meant for. He's a glass cannon assassin, not a frontline fighter like Soldier.


Hmm, how would you use him as an assassin? He seems much more like a backline character than assassin.
09/03/2016 01:37 PMPosted by iSinner
LMB is why people play him in the first place, if it would be meh, he would be ~0% pickrate (remember 18m mccree post fth?)

His stats are the worst from offense class, it was already discussed. I can copy paste them again for you

Competitive stats:

Total Kills/min
Soldier 76 2.41
Pharah 2.17
Genji 2.24
McCree 2.08 - the worst
Reaper 2.45
Tracer 2.45

Ult kills/min
Soldier 76 0.47
Pharah 0.46
Genji 0.58
McCree 0.32 - the worst
Reaper 0.51
Tracer 0.36

Kill/death ratio
Soldier 76 2.63
Pharah 2.34
Genji 2.3
McCree 1.9 - the worst
Reaper 2.66
Tracer 2.5

These stats are very misleading, you have to take into consideration that a very small amount of damage, whether you get the final blow or not, gives you an elim, which means heros who have weapons/abilities that make it easier to "spread" damage across multiple targets will have MASSIVELY inflated elim stats, this is why I can do absolutely nothing beneficial as D.va and still end the match with gold elims. Every single offense hero in the game has a weapon and kit more suited to spreading damage than McCree, this is why he shows low, but he is BY FAR the most powerful offense hero if you are accurate, thats why hes the defacto choice for pros at near 100% pickrate, the other heros are not actually out performing him on elims, they are just showing higher elims on the stats because of that elim for assist mechanic.

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