[Suggestion]McCree's Alt. Fire Balancing

General Discussion
Blue post, please.

Skip down to *** to avoid details and get to the suggestion and the logic behind it

Before you post in this thread, please keep in mind I honestly do not care whether or not you think I am good or bad with McCree, or whether you think he's OP or not. I would disagree with you but that isnt the topic of this thread and as such those posts don't belong here.

I believe that McCree is still kind in an odd spot right now because we have no idea where he is supposed to fit in. He's not inherently bad, his left click is good and doesn't need to be changed because its offset by its mediocre range/hard damage fall-off, and it's slow fire rate. He's also probably the single most easiest Offense hero to overwhelm, with even fewer escape/mobility/flanking options than Reaper/76 because of his standardized run speed.

The rest of his abilities are fine, his roll reloads his gun for him (it's almost exclusively used for reloading, hardly anyone uses it as a mobility skill) and his Flashbang is useful because it can stop certain heroes from ulting, like Reaper, Pharah, and Roadhog. It's also good for stopping mobile heroes and flankers in their tracks, which makes it more relevant than simply a limited ult canceler...afterwards however:

Most people used to Fan the Hammer. It was frustrating for a lot of people. It shred tanks even faster than Reaper shred tanks. I played a lot of Reinhardt, so I experienced this. I am in complete support of the FtH damage nerf. However on the patch notes it says:

HERO BALANCE CHANGES

McCree
Peacekeeper
- Alternate Fire
----Recovery time (i.e. the amount of time before McCree starts reloading) decreased from 0.75 seconds to 0.3 seconds
----Bullet damage decreased from 70 to 45

Developer Comments: McCree was performing too well against all targets, making him feel like a must-pick in many situations. By reducing the damage of his alternate fire, McCree is now significantly weaker against tanks like Roadhog and Reinhardt, but still maintains his lethality against smaller targets like Tracer and Genji.


I underlined a key-phrase in this announcement. The issue I am addressing in this thread, is his alternate fire. Previously, this over-loaded his kit to mid-range/close range dominance even over tanks, where their kit is supposed to be overwhelming or most effective. The nerf solved the issue regarding tanks, as it should have never been a tank buster. This I can agree on. There are only a few heroes meant to do things like this, like Symmetra or Reaper.

***

However, because of the damage nerf, the reliability of his alternate fire to kill heroes like Genji/Tracer has also been nerfed. His effectiveness on them wears off because you require more bullets to land to kill these heroes from Fan the Hammer during a stun. Ironically, Fan the Hammer is more useful on tanks than other classes: because they are not tanks and do not have enormous hitboxes with which to land all 6 bullets considering the enormous spread of his alternate fire.

So I propose this change to his alternate fire, to give it purpose:
McCree's alternate fire spread is reduced significantly, in order to be used reliably/consistently against heroes like Tracer/Genji/Reaper; and to also give his Fan the Hammer only 1-2 meter(s) range past the range of Flashbang (to accomodate jumping heroes). Beyond those meters, either no damage, or such intense damage fall-off that it hardly does anything.

Logically: If the nerf was currently effective enough to make McCree less effective at shredding tanks; making his right click more accurate will not change that, especially since you can't score headshots with it. If you're worried about people spamming it at a range, give it hardcore damage fall-off after 2-3 meters the range of flashbang (in the event someone gets flashed mid jump and lands further away). Another way would be to make his flashbang do more damage, so you have to rely less on landing all of the FtH shots but that's a little nuts especially since it can hit more than one person, technically. I am in favor of increasing the skillcap of the hero by decreasing the spread, and depending more on player skill/accuracy. If you have bad aim, you'll miss FtH and blow all 6 bullets for nothing.

I essentially don't rely on FtH at all when I play McCree. If his flash is supposed to be used to keep mobile heroes still as their counter, they should die to FtH at close range. Genji, Reaper etc should not have the opportunity to live through it via Deflect or Wraith Form (if the stun lands before or after he's used it).

I know that if you stun tracer, shooting her in the head once should kill her during the stun. I don't know if she can pop her E off during the stun, but it's possible to kill her during it with left click by shooting her in the head once; since left click does enough damage with head shots to finish her off after the damage from the grenade itself.

Genji and other 200/250 HP heroes will survive though, and if they have mobility skills they can potentially get away/avoid the follow up shot/melee or kill McCree. This change would correct that.

Genji shouldn't be a counter to McCree. FtH should kill him and McCree should feel safe using it on a stunned Genji. There have been times where I've stunned and tried to FtH and died to the deflect immediately following the stun, Despite the rate of fire increase.
(Though there are a multitude of options Genji has in CQC, which can admittedly be frustrating but hopefully his reflect hitbox will be corrected. See this suggestion here:
( http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748015329?page=10#post-183 )

If you think I'm biased please look at my profile. I've considered that heroes have differing abilities and they are diverse. I won't say McCree is a bad hero or OP, just that his alternate fire is much less useful than it could be and it's most useful for precisely what they said it shouldn't be useful for.

Space Cowboy McCree skin please.

Bang.
I agree with everything except

09/02/2016 10:17 AMPosted by Talon


Space Cowboy McCree skin please.

Bang.


No more corny Halloween skins for McCree please.
I like it. Either that or increase the stun time. I'm often baffled at how quickly Tracer can reverse out of it or Gengi can deflect. And I have way more time on Gengi and Tracer than I do McCree, so don't go getting any bias ideas.
09/02/2016 10:22 AMPosted by ShibaTaro
I agree with everything except

09/02/2016 10:17 AMPosted by Talon


Space Cowboy McCree skin please.

Bang.


No more corny Halloween skins for McCree please.

It's a Cowboy Bebop reference.
I would love to see changes like this. Great work there and thanks for your effort. Have my upvote.
09/02/2016 10:41 AMPosted by Ramiel

It's a Cowboy Bebop reference.


That's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.

I always feel a little better about being alive right now when other people get it.
I wish "Bang" was a regular voice line for McCree. He says it sometimes when he kills other heroes.

Also I know the development team is busy, but I also posted this thread at this time because I had seen a lot of blue posts. There isn't a particular suggestions ticket section so I only know to post it here, but it would be nice to know that threads like this are acknowledged, or to get feedback on the suggestion from someone official whether they criticize it or simply acknowledge that its in consideration or they personally feel like it would work.
Ironically FtH is best against tanks, and worse by far than McLeftClick against skinny targets(which he supposed to counter, read genji/tracer) at any range but 0m, which doesn't make sense to me. If anything, it is backwards from what devs wanted to achieve.

If they wanted FtH to keep its lethality against tracer/genji, they sure had to adapt FtH to work better than LMB against skinny hitboxes in his flashbang range.
I play a lot of McCree but also a ton of Rein/dva/Zarya.

I basically use fan exclusively on large targets at closer ranges, as you're basically guaranteed to land all shots, which you can repeat quickly with a roll.

It seems to do mediocre against Tracer, because her hitbox is so tiny, and against Genji/Reaper it is just absolutely lacking. Both having ample time to wraith or deflect and either escape or counter on far better point blank terms than McCree.

Once flash is down, he's basically a free kill to Genji or Reaper. With the coming Genji changes it will be a little harder since the weeb can't just 100-0 him with the wombo combo. Reaper still decimated quickly with the shotguns, however.

I think most of McCree's kit is otherwise fine, but fan is pretty worthless at what it is intended to do, and Deadeye after the coming changes will be about as useless as pre-buff D.va nuke.
Honestly, I believe FTH should just be able to land headshots on flashbanged targets. It would fix many problems.
09/03/2016 02:29 AMPosted by Lyelentu
Honestly, I believe FTH should just be able to land headshots on flashbanged targets. It would fix many problems.

It would not fix any problems. I can not hit the body on the skinny characters because the spread is so big, you can't aim the RNG, you want somehow to hit the head? what are you, the RNG god?

What will HS possibility do? nothing. It will do nothing.
09/03/2016 02:29 AMPosted by Lyelentu
Honestly, I believe FTH should just be able to land headshots on flashbanged targets. It would fix many problems.


That could potentially bring back the damage issue that got it nerffed in the first place.
09/03/2016 01:25 AMPosted by iSinner
Ironically FtH is best against tanks, and worse by far than McLeftClick against skinny targets(which he supposed to counter, read genji/tracer) at any range but 0m, which doesn't make sense to me. If anything, it is backwards from what devs wanted to achieve.

If they wanted FtH to keep its lethality against tracer/genji, they sure had to adapt FtH to work better than LMB against skinny hitboxes in his flashbang range.


It's because they don't know how to balance accordingly. Nerfing the damage to FtH was perfectly justified. However, they should have dramatically tightened the spread, and nuked the damage fall-off range. These two changes would make McCree EXACTLY the role Blizzard intended, as a squishy-killer/anti-flanker, with no difference on the ability to kill tanks.
I would love to have his flashbang also stop movement, maybe I just need to get used to it. But people are starting to realize that jumping makes it MUCH harder for a mccree to fan the hammer you since you still keep momentum while jumping so its much harder to hit all 6 bullets. Maybe the smaller spread will fix this, or maybe Im just bad. But I would love to see a change like that.

EDIT: I would also love to have the ult come back if you DIE while using it, so you still get it all gone if you miss or cancel it. But you can still get 50% when you die while in it.
It is my conviction that this is a reasonable suggestion.
For me, I have been playing overwatch now and through my experience of using all the heros, I find a couple of misfits and Mr "High Noon" would definitely be one.

First off, Mccree has no escape or movement abilities to get him out of a sticky situation, meaning once a genji, tracy or reaper walk up to his face he is pretty much a gone case. As implied, he is a dps focused character similar to that of an "AD carry" - squishy, no escape but insane damage output.

Secondly, let's assume a situation after flashbang hits a target. FtH should shread a large amount of health off low mobility tanks, (dva roaghog) and leave them with low health or dead, a well balanced mechanic already.

Now if the flash hits genji or tracy , a follow up with fth should and must be a kill. Those mosquito heros are not easy to flash, and sometimes after hitting them, due to the spread of bullets they don't die. A flash should secure a kill at least 60% of the time. (at point blank, 1v1)

Fth should be more rewarding with accuracy. Overwatch rewards skill and aiming with heros such as widowmaker for example - good aim tantamount to kills. Fth should allow headshots, slightly (very mild) more controlable recoil (in terms of the spread, lesser spread) for the guranteed kill on a flashed genji or tracy. Mccree's flash is his main form of initiating an engagement, and should be more rewarding on smaller hitbox characters at point blank. a genji or tracer can be quite hard to hit at some angles, not because of lack of skill in controling recoil but because of the insane spread. Do give this some thought.


In sum, thanks Talon for highlighting this, i really hope the developers take this into consideration for a more competitive and well balanced game.
bump
09/03/2016 08:46 PMPosted by Moonman
I would love to have his flashbang also stop movement, maybe I just need to get used to it. But people are starting to realize that jumping makes it MUCH harder for a mccree to fan the hammer you since you still keep momentum while jumping so its much harder to hit all 6 bullets. Maybe the smaller spread will fix this, or maybe Im just bad. But I would love to see a change like that.

EDIT: I would also love to have the ult come back if you DIE while using it, so you still get it all gone if you miss or cancel it. But you can still get 50% when you die while in it.


Stopping movement over a large area for several seconds and then cancelling it and getting to do it again fairly quickly, all with the POTENTIAL for a 1 shot kill is pretty good. However I feel like outside of surprising an VERY unaware team or doing a wombo combo McCree's ult is really underwhelming now. The thing is that there delays between shots, and even if you don't go for an instant kill it's only effectively ~170dps while being EXTREMELY vulnerable and blockable by barriers and if you die you get nothing. At least if you die with reaper or pharah you might have put a dent into the enemy.
I thought this post should be here, also bump

The roll is fine, the FtH is terrible compared to LMB, which makes the roll more desirable in conjunction with LMB as a simple reload rather than combo piece.

What they need to do do improve the roll as a combo piece, is reduce the spread on FtH and reduce the range at which it deals damage so it won't be a problem past flashbang range, so that it is actually good against flankers rather than good only against tanks(ironically), which they didn't want it to be. This way they can fix the roll potency, bring FtH out of the "only for tanks" cases and increase the skillcap by allowing to actually aim with FtH rather than pray to RNG gods.

Rebalance 1 skill, fix 3 problems. What are they waiting for ><



That would be a good solution, too. Cree's kit currently is compared to others just meh and it's called balnced just because his LMB makes up for that?

They don't even have to implement spread on fth in the first place. (You can do something like Whole Hog's recoil or something like that, would also increase the skillcap as you have to compensate the recoil)

FTH already has actual recoil, like Whole Hog. It also had a lot of spread added to it back in beta since it did 70 damage per bullet and was accurate to a considerable range. The spread was only added to reduce its effective range. It was fine though, since each bullet dealt so much damage that missing one, two, or sometimes even three didn't matter. That's not really the case anymore.

Like the others who have brought it up, I would favor a tighter spread with a steeper fall off. It would maintain it's role as a close range move while rewarding skilled aiming instead of leaving it up to chance.
It is strange that when a topic like this appears there is not much that can be said against it, so it fades away quickly. This forum could use some serious improvements, similar to what reddit does maybe?
Flashbang needs to completely stop to momentum, you have this ability that hard stuns mobile target but the ability can be nullified by jumping, !@#$ing jumping.
Fan the hammer can have the current spread, i don't mind it, I mind when pressing spacebar> a stun ability with 10sec cooldown.
09/06/2016 04:28 AMPosted by Lawrencium
Flashbang needs to completely stop to momentum, you have this ability that hard stuns mobile target but the ability can be nullified by jumping, !@#$ing jumping.
Fan the hammer can have the current spread, i don't mind it, I mind when pressing spacebar> a stun ability with 10sec cooldown.

This is also backwards, they made it to stop mobile heroes, but it works the worst against them, it works best on low mobility/tank heroes.

FtH is best against tanks, which is backwards from what it should be.
Flashbang is worst against mobile heroes because it doesn't stop momentum and best against slow moving/tank heroes, which is again backwards from what it should be.

Everything about eerCcM kit is backwards.

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