Are you aware that McCree is NOT a counter to Genji?

General Discussion
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Highly Rated
"We want McCree to be a counter to people like Tracer, Genji and Reaper."
- Jeff Kaplan

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-07-overwatch-blizzard-answers-the-big-questions

How am i supposed to counter Genji with McCree?

By raw mechanical skills? That's not a counter, that is a definition of a pure better player, that's not what a counter means. And if anything, hitting Genji is harder than any other hero, so here McCree is less of a counter to Genji than to any other hero.

With flashbang? How am i supposed to counter a hero who is supposed to be in the air all of the time and is built around jumping with an ability that is countered by a jump? It doesn’t make any sense.
Here are multiple examples of how this skill simply does not work against Genji because it does not stop momentum
  • https://gfycat.com/HonestConcreteAuklet
  • https://gfycat.com/TinyInbornBoutu
  • https://gfycat.com/LoneSilverBedbug
  • https://gfycat.com/DimDescriptiveEskimodog
  • https://gfycat.com/TiredNeedyArcticduck
  • https://gfycat.com/FirmObviousFrillneckedlizard
  • https://streamable.com/w5sk
  • https://gfycat.com/AnxiousDelectableAlbacoretuna
  • https://gfycat.com/AjarWarpedCobra
  • https://gfycat.com/OpulentIllegalIggypops
  • https://gfycat.com/UnfitSerpentineBandicoot
  • https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YVrxFmheSc

Even more examples can be found here
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269

With FtH? He is too skinny and too fast to hit him with FtH in any meaningful way before you die, and while the recoil is manageable and predictable, this thing has pure RNG, i have no control over it, the bullets go left and right at random, i can’t do anything about it. And if anything, i kill myself with FtH, because reflected bullets have no spread or RNG whatsoever, and reflect is what happens every time i attempt using FtH on him. And if you say use flashbang first, see my previous point. And if you say just left click, see my first point.

For me Genji is the most terrifying hero to face as McCree, and McCree is considered a counter to Genji by Blizzard? I don’t understand how is he considered a counter to him at all. McCree is less of a counter to Genji than to any other hero.

Can devs at least admit he is currently not a counter to Genji? Because it bothers me that they insist that McCree is being a counter to a hero, which he does not counter. I’m afraid that they are unaware of this and will do nothing about it.

Jeff, Geoff, everyone else that i don't know, please look at this, the community is mostly listing Genji as a counter to McCree, you can't have more obvious signals that something is wrong, especially when you stated that McCree should be a counter to him.
09/20/2016 02:56 PMPosted by Synric
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree
-Weak against Genji

http://www.overcounters.com/
-Soft countered by Genji

http://overwatch.metabomb.net/gameplay-guides/overwatch-counters-guide-june-2016
-Weak against Genji

https://www.furiouspaul.com/overwatch/mccree.html
- Neutral with Genji


PS This is a continuation of
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748947210 which had 239 upvotes
McCree/Genji is a pickVpick. That's never going to result in a viable counter.

Tanks counter picks.
Picks counter power.
Power counters tanks.

Area denial characters throw spanners into the works, and healers babysit their team.
Uh. Yeah? If you can track and aim McCree shuts down Genji. Do you know what happens in pro play when a McCree focuses Genji? Genji switches.
Highly Rated
09/22/2016 11:37 PMPosted by ElderOne
McCree/Genji is a pickVpick. That's never going to result in a viable counter.

Tanks counter picks.
Picks counter power.
Power counters tanks.

Area denial characters throw spanners into the works, and healers babysit their team.

Tanks counter everything in this game.
Highly Rated
09/22/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Rubiss
Uh. Yeah? If you can track and aim McCree shuts down Genji. Do you know what happens in pro play when a McCree focuses Genji? Genji switches.

That still doesn't explain why Genji is the only hero in the roster who can consistently exploit physics for a "get out of jail free" card when Flashbanged while everyone else ends up dead.

That's blatant bias.
09/22/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Rubiss
Uh. Yeah? If you can track and aim McCree shuts down Genji. Do you know what happens in pro play when a McCree focuses Genji? Genji switches.
SO what your saying is the mechanics Mcree has specifically designed to stop and quickly kill flankers is less effective than shooting him and yet this fine because why again?
Genji's flexibility is what makes him difficult to counter, he just has too many options to use if 1 thing or another is not a good possibility.

long range harass
short range burst
deflect burst
high vertical mobility for escape

If something counters him, he just plays around it with another style and regardless gets his ult and then usually gets support when he uses it.

I don't think your ever gonna see mccree as a hard counter to genji. He's definitely fairly decent against reaper and tracer though, so at least that's something.
09/22/2016 11:51 PMPosted by Ramiel
09/22/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Rubiss
Uh. Yeah? If you can track and aim McCree shuts down Genji. Do you know what happens in pro play when a McCree focuses Genji? Genji switches.

That still doesn't explain why Genji is the only hero in the roster who can consistently exploit physics for a "get out of jail free" card when Flashbanged while everyone else ends up dead.

That's blatant bias.


Have you ever been sent to the sky by a Reinhardt pin? How about a Lucio sending a leaping Winston to the moon?

You don't just spam double jump as Genji. That's a great way to die against any decent player. Double jump has a predictable path. It works best in open areas. Where does McCree like to hang out? Small corridors and from high up.
I dunno, I've played alittle McCree,im godamn awful with him (something like bottom 9% rank at around 32% accuracy)

I can kill a Genji, when I don't, it's cause I messed up. Tracer too, pharah, pretty much every squishy. So I don't know man, if I can do it with a fair amount of reliability at 9% then one would assume the 91% of people better than me should be able to as well.
09/22/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Rubiss
Uh. Yeah? If you can track and aim McCree shuts down Genji. Do you know what happens in pro play when a McCree focuses Genji? Genji switches.


09/22/2016 11:33 PMPosted by iSinner
hitting Genji is harder than any other hero, so here McCree is less of a counter to Genji than to any other hero.
09/22/2016 11:57 PMPosted by Poppyspy
Genji's flexibility is what makes him difficult to counter, he just has too many options to use if 1 thing or another is not a good possibility.

long range harass
short range burst
deflect burst
high vertical mobility for escape

If something counters him, he just plays around it with another style and regardless gets his ult and then usually gets support when he uses it.

I don't think your ever gonna see mccree as a hard counter to genji. He's definitely fairly decent against reaper and tracer though, so at least that's something.

If McCree's close range kit was effective, I could see him being a very good counter to Genji. A Genji who sits at range won't beat McCee, and if Flashbang worked properly, McCree would actually have the upper hand in CQC. Flashbang would also be a very good counter to an ulting Genji, who would need to get into melee range to deal his damage.

Genji would still be able to dive a McCree who wiffs his Flashbang.
Well, this is a bit strange, because McCree and Genji counters each others, so to speak. But that does not mean they are powerless when facing the other. It's quite the opposite actually.

Firstly, McCree is quite good against Genji because of his single shot hitscan burst weapon, as you don't have to deal with movement prediction as much as with a projectile weapon, making Genji's mobility/dashes less relevant to "dodge". And secondly because of his flashbang, which is a great tool to punish every single mistake genji would make, or when he's off-guard/off-CD's, or more simply: Counter his ultimate.

On the other hand with Genji, you soft-counter McCree by being highly mobile, which still makes you a difficult target to aim at, and through your deflect ability. The deflect potentially counters all his shots, admitting you know how to aim with a hitscan weapon while in movement. BUT, it does not counters his ultimate very well, as it either delays McCree's ultimate, making him vulnerable for a longer time during his high-noon, or you throw back his shot at him (you still have to aim). But it's tricky, as McCree's ultimate lasts longer than your 2sec deflect. So...It's a true duel of cowboys, so to speak. :P

Anyway, McCree is definitely a hero to keep an eye on as Genji, as it means heavy damages or death for Genji.
If you really wanted to counter genji why not just play winston?
09/22/2016 11:59 PMPosted by Rubiss
09/22/2016 11:51 PMPosted by Ramiel
...
That still doesn't explain why Genji is the only hero in the roster who can consistently exploit physics for a "get out of jail free" card when Flashbanged while everyone else ends up dead.

That's blatant bias.


Have you ever been sent to the sky by a Reinhardt pin? How about a Lucio sending a leaping Winston to the moon?

You don't just spam double jump as Genji. That's a great way to die against any decent player. Double jump has a predictable path. It works best in open areas. Where does McCree like to hang out? Small corridors and from high up.

Rein and Lucio knocking people back is intended. Flashbang is meant to stun people and hold them still. Quit comparing apples to oranges and saying they're the same.
09/23/2016 01:14 AMPosted by Ramiel
09/22/2016 11:59 PMPosted by Rubiss
...

Have you ever been sent to the sky by a Reinhardt pin? How about a Lucio sending a leaping Winston to the moon?

You don't just spam double jump as Genji. That's a great way to die against any decent player. Double jump has a predictable path. It works best in open areas. Where does McCree like to hang out? Small corridors and from high up.

Rein and Lucio knocking people back is intended. Flashbang is meant to stun people and hold them still. Quit comparing apples to oranges and saying they're the same.
Last I checked, a flashbang was meant to stun people as you stated, no where, anywhere, does it say its meant to hold them still, it isnt a snare like a junkrat trap, its a brief moment where all user inputs are locked, an obvious result of this is that they stop running for a moment, but there is zero logical reason why it would have any impact on inertia of someone falling, thats just gravity, and all heros will do the same exact thing if jumping when hit with it.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3D1xq0Ie57WpR2BJc45kexyOtVqjfTiz

I was gonna read the forum a bit and go play some McCree, but repeatedly seeing your wailing finally prompted me to make some clips of how FB should be used.

Not sure if I should still play now. It's late and lady of the house is gonna go primal rage on me if she sees me up playing video game. It's your fault.

Anyway... Since I'm maining Cowboy atm, I expect I'll have more examples added in the future. Stay tuned.
09/23/2016 01:34 AMPosted by poochie
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3D1xq0Ie57WpR2BJc45kexyOtVqjfTiz

I was gonna read the forum a bit and go play some McCree, but repeatedly seeing your wailing finally prompted me to make some clips of how FB should be used.

Not sure if I should still play now. It's late and lady of the house is gonna go primal rage on me if she sees me up playing video game. It's your fault.

Anyway... Since I'm maining Cowboy atm, I expect I'll have more examples added in the future. Stay tuned.
Finally someone who isnt a moron expecting a handout free win button change to flashbang because its "too much effort" to wait for the right time to FB and just throw it whenever instead, lose, and then come on here to cry about it. The same way that genji is CHOOSING to jump to try and survive your flashbang, you can CHOOSE to throw your flashbang as hes about to surface touch, negating his ability to do so. These threads are literally like me saying "I pressed Q with reaper inside spawn and didnt get any kills, please buff it blizzard" acting like im NOT the moron for using it at a clearly ineffective time.

Logic is hard though, so I cant wait for more "waaaah why cant flashbang defy physics and halt falling inertia/gravity" posts.
09/23/2016 12:25 AMPosted by TwinkieMayne
If you really wanted to counter genji why not just play winston?
Because Winston is very likely ging to have 2-3 of his counters in that match and it's bad to only have him as a counter. You may really need that Zarya and Reinhardt but you don't really need that Tracer so they can swap to mcree only to find out Mcree's kit is inferior at dealing with him outside of landing shots with his hitscan pistol.

This why Genji is able to run rampant and maintains his position in the Meta despite so many 'counters' being present because they can not shut him down hard enough even when they are all present to warrant a swap, when played correctly. So many mechanics supposedly working against him yet he is fine other heroes would need to bail in that situation because they will be too easily and frequently nullified in that scenario. So the game is biased towards him yes.
09/23/2016 12:25 AMPosted by TwinkieMayne
If you really wanted to counter genji why not just play winston?

I know McCree is really a bad counter, thats my point. Thanks for pointing out to change to other hero, but i already know this. If you think i'm asking how to counter Genji, you really missed everything that this topic is about.
I just have a staring contest against Genji with McCree. I won't shoot him nor will I throw my flashbang untill I've seen that deflect animation, sometimes he kills me sometimes I kill him after he's used deflect.

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