PTR: Feedback on D.Va

General Discussion
1 2 3 51 Next
Highly Rated
+ update, "part 2" (use it when this thread is out of posts limit):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752640541

+update, response from Geoff:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=26#post-502
* TL;DR: Blizzard considers the changes and all the consequences "working as intended". Thus I don't think major adjustments to nerfed state will come.

+update, Geoff on what's D.Va's role now:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=27#post-536
* No TL;DR here: I'm not sure how to comment, please, make your own conclusions.

+ update, Jeff on D.Va in the Developers Update:
https://youtu.be/ibPLyx8QWYc?t=9m34s
*TL;DR: Blizzard think D.Va is doing too much. They consider her mobility and get in-get out mechanics as the main power of the hero (although it's not clear how to do it when MEKA melts in ~1-2 seconds now) and the absence of reload frames as a major advantage (although you never fire 100% of the time).

***

So following what Jeff said about actual testing and feedback I decided to play there more extensively and for the facts, track some numbers. I will continue to update this feedback thread when I have more results.

So far it's around ~1h of data gathering (update: ~2 hours). There are several points I want to address:

Damage change
This one feels like a big issue. For long time I couldn't realize what's wrong, but I caught it finally: the damage spread makes it unrewarding to aim to the head. As any good D.Va player, you aim to the head and not just tracking the enemy hero model. However, with number of pellets increased, less of them are hitting the crit.box. This means D.Va rewards skill way less now and often enough (RoadHog, Reinhardt) she will deal more damage when specifically non-shooting the head. EDIT: this statement needs to be clarified better - and I mean the falloff + distance conjunction when less pellets hit (it was causing lots of misunderstanding). On the screen it is easily seen by statistics:

http://imgur.com/a/SV0tQ
http://imgur.com/a/D9VjO

Second point, with the damage of pellets decreased, D.Va become very easy target to armored enemies. Before change she had relatively fair match-up with Reinhardt, but now - forget it. It messes me up completely. Since he will be prevalent and now she counters D.Va very strong, it weakens her positions and gives big questions on picking her. Other armored targets are now also a problem, but the main thing is this: in conjunction with less rewarding headshot aiming, shooting armored targets non-crit hits means you'll not win 1 v 1 unless the target is severely damaged.

Third point, with spread naturally increased with more pellets, D.Va damage becomes near useless starting ~10m, she can only possess a threat in point blank range. This means she can no longer oppose flying Pharah at all and suddenly heroes with small hitboxes are a big problem: angular rotation speed is too slow to cover it up for "carousel" tactics.

+ update: to illustrate,
Live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkXFloX0W4 (at 8 sec)
PTR version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JcCR0b5Cxo (at 13 sec)

- this is about - what's happening in ~10 and more meters. The circle is same, but the spread within the circle is not and the more damage individual pellet does - the better will be end result. Please, note - on close distance and on big targets it's almost not possible to see the difference, but on something small enough (like head of the bot) it's possible to see the difference.

In practice it means - to consistently deal damage you need to be very close to the target meaning it can start running around and bunny-hoping waiting until the defense ability is off CD. Suddenly I can't counter Widow since she will just run around and then hook away to her team. This also means you often can't shoot from behind Rein shield or the effectiveness is very questionable.

It also means that overall damage is decreasing quite a lot. I understand that "quite a lot" isn't a number, but it's hard to measure damage decrease because of positioning factor. I simply can not now go too close or overextend even a little without being de-suited meaning I keep safer distance and from that distance the damage is significantly lower. I get silver damage with current D.Va often (no, I don't refer to troll games and if the game is serious, I don't get gold) but with the changes it's hard to get even bronze. Again - not numbers, but at least some indication.

+ update, more numbers: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=25#post-500 (credits to Tapkomet)

Health changes

Main point would be: health changes make it so in point blank range D.Va is very fragile. Not a rocket science, but I checked that RoadHog combo leaves me with less than 200HP. Reaper does around 200HP damage per shot. This means it's incredibly difficult to duel heroes in close range. But in same time, as I've written above, in any distance longer than 10m D.Va suffers from extreme lack of damage. On top of this, any armored target means a problem since her shotguns now struggle against them.

The issue is that I noticed - any hero in practice now is a threat whereas before I knew that against some of them I can start bruising and even if the situation was a bit in their favor. I don't argue - it shouldn't be the case when one hero has an advantage against all others, but let's be honest - current D.Va doesn't have advantage against all of them. She is strong against some, weak against some. With the new changes - any hero is a big threat variable to take into equation, positioning becomes very tough and it's difficult to select a point where D.Va isn't punished.

Healing overall
With the fragility D.Va got now - here I would like to note that the only healer which can help sustain D.Va is Ana. Mercy's healing is almost unnoticed on D.Va now, because you heal 60HP and she gets 200+HP damage per second. I don't want to go further on Ana's topic, but when the hero can't be maintained by all of them but one - it's not good. We have similar hero to D.Va in terms of no-armor: RoadHog, but he has self-healing and doesn't suffer from that huge critbox. Sure, D.Va has her matrix, but it doesn't defend against beams + it doesn't defend in circular area + it lasts at most 4 seconds whereas every second without looks like time to search for a cover.

What do I think may help

- Damage. I couldn't come up with anything, but simply revert the nerf. It must be so that head shooting is rewarded. Hence number of pellets shouldn't be increased. And with the fragility she gets now - her damage mechanics shouldn't dictate point blank range that much. Therefore, damage per pellets should be restored. I can't imagine another solution here.

- The armor. To be honest, I'm in doubt that her current health model is causing troubles and is OP, but I assume testing Ana changes on them separately isn't an option. Thus I think she could have a mix of her S2 and S3 health models. There are two options: first, try out 300HP + 300 armor or second, try out 400 armor, 150HP model. Personally, I like second more, but both of them will allow her not to melt that quickly as she does with the changes. One hook from RoadHog shouldn't mean de-suiting, it doesn't feel right. Tank shouldn't suffer from receiving blows like 200+HP in one hit regularly.

Overall thoughts

You introduced several significant nerfs on D.Va at same time - this isn't a good idea. What's more important - one nerf synergizes with another. With damage nerf you made it so she has to go point blank range and with survivability nerf you made it so she melts in this range. In conjunction it hurts a lot. It's two nerfs and one fuels another - not good in my opinion.

I want to see gradual nerf/buff model. So if nerf character - go for it, but not too far. In this case - changing her health to 300/300 or 400/150 may be an option to go. What's also important - you've changed healers in this patch - and that's definitely not a great idea to coincide it with health values changes. That's my opinion.

More feedback threads for this PTR iteration:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752570008
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752489057
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752659495
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=4#post-74 (in this thread)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752429654
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752529180
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752669657
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752500195
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=21#post-403 (in this thread)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752649942
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752669838 (from DPS-main perspective)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752621602
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752441215

Match-up summary:
+ update, now gathered more data (in total ~2hours):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=5#post-81
+ update, match-ups for supports and a bit more:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=10#post-181

+ update, a wise man on the D.Va changes (special video on the topic):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im-Me-_MsJc
*note, this is a must watch is you want to see real footage from PTR and still have any doubts on how squishy D.Va is now

+ update, some analysis video on why armor nerf is devastating for D.Va:
https://youtu.be/Ns9asF75Snk
*comparison on how tanks are functioning and why D.Va had her armor and why she needs to have it

P.S. On a feedback in general.

I do believe Jeff and team reads the feedback and his latest post encouraged me to go do and write the feedback. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752500232?page=8#post-149

I also believe in constructive feedback. Therefore I want that threads with "haha, suffer D.Va and Hog mains" and nothing more are removed from the forums. They bring nothing and only instigate flaming, rage and hatred. I noted many of them as trolling and hope it will help. Please, help me too - let's keep feedback constructive.
Highly Rated
I want to add that the increase in the deadzone of Defense Matrix makes it hard to escape when I know that I'm going to lose a duel. You have to get very close to deal damage and as a result her opponent can enter her deadzone and ignore defense matrix completely. This usually means that If I'm fighting someone when boosters are on cooldown I can't survive long enaugh for them to be available again. This is a big problem against all shotgun heroes.

I've also noticed it while fighting other D.Vas as D.Va. Normally I wouldn't be hitting them on live. It makes me feel that turning around and walking away gives her a better chance of survival than protecting herself with defense matrix but due to her lack of armor her mech still dies.
Highly Rated
This post also depict the unbalance approach to criticism on D.Va you present fact argue points, but it really doesn't matter She "feels" OP so lets nerf her seems to be the argument.
Highly Rated
I have also tested her on PTR and she melts faster than she ever has since I started playing, which was pre-buff. She feels like she isn't a tank anymore. 300HP/300 armor would be superior to this. While still nerfing her it would be less severe. Yes you can fly away but I often feel like I have no effect on PTR, just doing a tiny bit of damage and then being forced to fly away. Being scared to get in close enough to do optimal damage with her shotguns. It really doesn't feel anywhere near as effective as what I could do with Zarya for example.
Highly Rated
Yup, this is what people have been saying.
Reaper can solo kill D.Va with mercy only healing her. That says something.
Highly Rated
Great post OP. I want to add that when D.Va should really come to live with this changes, Soldier 76 will even be more annoying if they doesn't nerf his damage. D.Va is at the moment one of the best counters to 76 with her DM but will probably be less picked if she goes live like this. And yes, I played her at the PTR.
Nice detail. From the other side of things: if a Reaper can get D.Va alone, it's possible to run into her face making no attempts to dodge and win. Her accuracy plus his boost against her is just ridiculous.
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.
Highly Rated
01/07/2017 07:29 AMPosted by TimySch
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.


PTR D.Va has no survivability. Defense Matrix doesn't last long enaugh for her to fill the role of a passive tank like Reinhardt. She now takes more damage than any other tank (slightly more than Winston) and has worse matchups than any other tank.
Honestly they might as well just chop her off the rota and remake her. Her design apparently just doesn't work and her future will be a continuous bounce of UP and OP.

I bet you it is all down to the Eject Passive ability to why the team is so aggressive with the nerfs. If D.va is to feel good in the future that sort of ability needs to go.
01/07/2017 07:29 AMPosted by TimySch
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.


Best ultimates... Nah.. 3 second delay lets anyone with a brain escape. You can combo it with another ult like earthshatter or graviton surge but that takes a lot of team coordination to achieve.
I dont understand, I thought DVA was tank, not dps. I feel her health should stay the way it is but she definetly needs the damage nerf. Why is DVA able to melt anyone the way she does right now? Why go dps when DVA does insane damage at close range and enough armor to back her up? At this moment DVA can actually 1v1 a reaper and win with plently of armor, defense matrix only adds more to her survivability so do you understand why DVA needed this nerf? Lets not even bring ana to this because ana with her grenades made DVA unstoppable. Maybe her armor could stay the same but I totally agree to DVA getting the damage nerf, its needed and shes a tank, not dps.
01/07/2017 07:29 AMPosted by TimySch
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.


We don't need to bring any toxicity into this discussion.
01/07/2017 07:52 AMPosted by infamous067
I dont understand, I thought DVA was tank, not dps. I feel her health should stay the way it is but she definetly needs the damage nerf. Why is DVA able to melt anyone the way she does right now? Why go dps when DVA does insane damage at close range and enough armor to back her up? At this moment DVA can actually 1v1 a reaper and win with plently of armor, defense matrix only adds more to her survivability so do you understand why DVA needed this nerf? Lets not even bring ana to this because ana with her grenades made DVA unstoppable. Maybe her armor could stay the same but I totally agree to DVA getting the damage nerf, its needed and shes a tank, not dps.
D.Va could always 1v1 reaper
I played her on PTR a little and her dmg seems to me as a BUFF

i dont get why people say like she has now Trash dmg or something

and about this HP/Armor

on Live i barely see Little Dva out of mech because her Mech never dies, if Roadhog gets her out of position she will always fly away

and its a good nerf because every game/match you will barely see Dva out of her Mech, as like 5% of the game time she is only without her Mech

that how good her survivability is with this Armor and flying escape
01/07/2017 08:00 AMPosted by Sveron
I played her on PTR a little and her dmg seems to me as a BUFF

i dont get why people say like she has now Trash dmg or something

and about this HP/Armor

on Live i barely see Little Dva out of mech because her Mech never dies, if Roadhog gets her out of position she will always fly away

and its a good nerf because every game/match you will barely see Dva out of her Mech, as like 5% of the game time she is only without her Mech

that how good her survivability is with this Armor and flying escape


Her mech never dies because of Ana's healing. D.Va can still be outplayed.

Hence why I keep proposing that Blizzard turns her health back to 400 armor 100 health.
There is nothing wrong with the nerf. It serves its purpose well. Just say as it is that you disagree with the motive.

The nerf is intended to make more heroes such as Reaper able to deal with D.Va. In order to achieve this her damage and armor had to be reduced. On live she can duel any hero except a Zarya with full charge. She has no counters and no downsides.

If you want her to be able to do what she currently does just say so and stop pretending like you want her to be balanced.
01/07/2017 08:00 AMPosted by Sveron
I played her on PTR a little and her dmg seems to me as a BUFF

i dont get why people say like she has now Trash dmg or something

and about this HP/Armor

on Live i barely see Little Dva out of mech because her Mech never dies, if Roadhog gets her out of position she will always fly away

and its a good nerf because every game/match you will barely see Dva out of her Mech, as like 5% of the game time she is only without her Mech

that how good her survivability is with this Armor and flying escape


The damage thing is weird. It's less damage but more pellets. Ideally, this leads to a normal distribution in whether it's on targets or not and the more pellets you fire, the more obvious it is that you'll get the average number hitting at the same time. But something is messing with accuracy, so less are hitting, less are hitting critically when on target, and the range is worse. So the damage nerf is more of a nerf than it appears on the surface.
I totally disagree with you man.
Actual D.VA on live server is an harasser. When D.Va fails killing heroes with 250 health....SHE KEEPS HARASSING THEM. She never stops there she keeps insisting with her low CD skills like her flying skill.

That is not healthy for the ally team who wants D.Va to stick together with them and very toxic for the enemy who is getting harassed.

D.Va has too many low CD skills and Defense Matrix is the most OP defense created on an FPS competitive game. She has to be toned down.

Now for her pellet damage she will have to keep hitting small targets with less of 250 hp for one more seconds to kill them AND THAT'S FAIR. At very close range D.VA kills almost as fast as a Tracer to squishy targets and that has to change now.

Come down from your cloud and stop living in dreams dude. Grow up!
Highly Rated
You introduced several significant nerfs on D.Va at same time - this isn't a good idea. What's more important - one nerf synergizes with another.


This sums up things quite nicely.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum