PTR: Feedback on D.Va

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01/09/2017 02:55 AMPosted by Pendant
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I have to point something here: I do not expect the blue post which confirms issue. It is irrelevant that post gained much attention - it is still my opinion and my observations/testing results. Balancing can not and should not be done solely on one opinion. However - I do see that many of players experience similar issues like I do. And this may be a reason for them to at least closer look into changes they're introducing.

That being said, a blue post will of course be appreciated - not one which sates something, but something which will mean the posts here were taken to the account - would be already a great thing to see.


Blues are looking most intently at the takeaways from a neutral party. One such as myself would be an example. Those who are indifferent and mostly unaffected by D.Vas place in the meta would obviously give the fairest feedback. Those who rely on D.Va sadly are compromised.


People who main heroes that D.Va counters are hardly neutral.
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Blues are looking most intently at the takeaways from a neutral party. One such as myself would be an example. Those who are indifferent and mostly unaffected by D.Vas place in the meta would obviously give the fairest feedback. Those who rely on D.Va sadly are compromised.


People who main heroes that D.Va counters are hardly neutral.

.. in the end, it's not a popularity contest. At least I hope so. I really want to believe PTR testing and feedback means something. The extraction would be:

- Jeff, if people aren't that eager to play on PTR - we should encourage it more. Give people portion of XP from PTR for example.

- And keep an eye on the threads. You know - even a simple post like you did before (no promises were done, no statements claimed, it's all neutral) may encourage more people to go and test the issue deeper and write detailed feedback. In the end, all win.
Since this seems to be the "main" thread on the subject, I'm just copying my reply from another thread into here.

I haven't had that much time to play on the PTR. My main observations last night were:

-Ana still makes a huge difference when it comes to tank survivability.
-Roadhog absolutely destroys D.Va with these changes, where it used to be more of a close match where either could come out victorious.
-Symmetra also seems very effective against her now, but I don't have enough experience to say that with certainty. Does anyone actually know how Symmetra's beam interacts with armour?

Other than that, I've played a fair bit of D.Va, she used to be one of my better heroes long before the last round of buffs. My thoughts on the subject are as follows:

-I never really understood why she wasn't more popular before. Sure, her lower movement speed while firing made her less able to secure kills, but she really punished poor positioning. And more importantly, Defensive Matrix was one of the few reasonably effective counters to the beyblade combo.

-Why she suddenly became so popular after her last round of buffs? Well, I think it has less to do with her, and more to do with the prevalence of Soldier. Now that Rein's shield melts so quickly, D.Va is good for picking up when he has to pull back. And she's also one of the better heroes for pouring fire into the opposing side's Rein.

-Since I play her a fair bit, I also have learned how to deal with her as other classes. Soldier can really punish her in the current live environment, as long as he's smart enough to aim for her cockpit. His damage is high enough to melt her mech fairly quickly, and his healing is good enough to keep him standing if she gets close. Mei is really effective against D.Va. As for Reaper, he can destroy her mech in three to four shots if he goes for the head (he needs eight body shots, six in the current PTR). However, a lot of Reaper players tend to be really daft when going up against D.Va. The trick is to hold off on firing if she activates defensive matrix. I can't count the number of times I've had a reaper just spam all eight shells into my defensive matrix, and then I just murder him while he's reloading.

-One of the nice things about D.Va suddenly becoming popular, is that there are a lot of new, quite bad D.Va players out there. For the last months I've had a field day asserting my dominance over weaker D.Va players who don't know how to make the most of her.

As for her changes? I'll have to spend some more time on the PTR to get a clearer picture. Personally, I was fine with how she worked before the last round of buffs, and I'd be fine if they just decided to revert her changes from the last major patch. This PTR version of her... I think she's countered too hard by Roadhog, which I'm not sure was intended.
I like how u call this data can u make a graph out of it now.
Points I really agree with: "I want to see gradual nerf/buff model. So if nerf character - go for it, but not too far." and "With damage nerf you made it so she has to go point blank range and with survivability nerf you made it so she melts in this range."

The fact that she has to go so close to even deal significant damage and with this new hp model she gets shredded, really does not enable her to do her role as a disruptor/tank/damage soaker, rendering her near useless/enemy ult build up meter. Not to mention a drastic double nerf at once is a bit extreme.

However, I'm not even sure any of this is being heard because as we know how many ptr changes actually didn't go live in overwatch?
i think she loses her mech a little bit too easy.. dva on ptr is just like roadhog.. a fat walking/flying ultimate charge target.. while she barely charges her own ultimate spending so much time out of mech.
01/09/2017 04:41 AMPosted by keeeyt
i think she loses her mech a little bit too easy.. dva on ptr is just like roadhog.. a fat walking/flying ultimate charge target.. while she barely charges her own ultimate spending so much time out of mech.


But roadhog has a big pressure with its hook,which Dva doesn't have.
She has her DM at best but that's it.
Roadhog has always been an ultimate charger because he had some firepower behind if you mess with him.
01/07/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Angel
Health changes

Main point would be: health changes make it so in point blank range D.Va is very fragile. Not a rocket science, but I checked that RoadHog combo leaves me with less than 200HP. Reaper does around 200HP damage per shot. This means it's incredibly difficult to duel heroes in close range. But in same time, as I've written above, in any distance longer than 10m D.Va suffers from extreme lack of damage. On top of this, any armored target means a problem since her shotguns now struggle against them.

The issue is that I noticed - any hero in practice now is a threat whereas before I knew that against some of them I can start bruising and even if the situation was a bit in their favor. I don't argue - it shouldn't be the case when one hero has an advantage against all others, but let's be honest - current D.Va doesn't have advantage against all of them. She is strong against some, weak against some. With the new changes - any hero is a big threat variable to take into equation, positioning becomes very tough and it's difficult to select a point where D.Va isn't punished.

Healing overall
With the fragility D.Va got now - here I would like to note that the only healer which can help sustain D.Va is Ana. Mercy's healing is almost unnoticed on D.Va now, because you heal 60HP and she gets 200+HP damage per second. I don't want to go further on Ana's topic, but when the hero can't be maintained by all of them but one - it's not good. We have similar hero to D.Va in terms of no-armor: RoadHog, but he has self-healing and doesn't suffer from that huge critbox. Sure, D.Va has her matrix, but it doesn't defend against beams + it doesn't defend in circular area + it lasts at most 4 seconds whereas every second without looks like time to search for a cover.


Reaper is supposed to beat d.va at close range. Do you thing Roadhog should get 400 armor too since Reaper melts him? Roadhog's hook is also a direct counter to D.va's defense matrix too. If you don't want to get melted, don't get hooked. And personally, I find Roadhog's critical hitbox far easier to hit since he bobs his head into his chest.
01/09/2017 06:24 AMPosted by Doomfist
Reaper is supposed to beat d.va at close range.

Well, that seems to depend on who you ask. I'm not sure why Reaper suddenly was "intended" to be a tankbuster. Sure, that's the role he ended up with, but I don't think that was the designers' intent originally.

Do you thing Roadhog should get 400 armor too since Reaper melts him? Roadhog's hook is also a direct counter to D.va's defense matrix too. If you don't want to get melted, don't get hooked. And personally, I find Roadhog's critical hitbox far easier to hit since he bobs his head into his chest.
Roadhog vs. Reaper is another one of those matchups where individual skill and timing really comes into play. Reaper can really punish the hog, but if Roadhog manages to land his hook, it's lights out for Reaper.

If Reaper ever hard countered a tank, it was Winston. Most of the other tanks have ways to make the duel more or less even. Reinhardt's charge, Zarya's barrier and Roadhog's hook all made it a bit risky for Reaper to go after them 1 vs 1. D.Va live is the same, she has defensive matrix and enough armour to make it difficult for an inexperienced Reaper player to take her out, while an experienced player will hold off on his attacks until defensive matrix is down, and go for her critical hit location.
01/09/2017 06:24 AMPosted by Doomfist
01/07/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Angel
Health changes

Main point would be: health changes make it so in point blank range D.Va is very fragile. Not a rocket science, but I checked that RoadHog combo leaves me with less than 200HP. Reaper does around 200HP damage per shot. This means it's incredibly difficult to duel heroes in close range. But in same time, as I've written above, in any distance longer than 10m D.Va suffers from extreme lack of damage. On top of this, any armored target means a problem since her shotguns now struggle against them.

The issue is that I noticed - any hero in practice now is a threat whereas before I knew that against some of them I can start bruising and even if the situation was a bit in their favor. I don't argue - it shouldn't be the case when one hero has an advantage against all others, but let's be honest - current D.Va doesn't have advantage against all of them. She is strong against some, weak against some. With the new changes - any hero is a big threat variable to take into equation, positioning becomes very tough and it's difficult to select a point where D.Va isn't punished.

Healing overall
With the fragility D.Va got now - here I would like to note that the only healer which can help sustain D.Va is Ana. Mercy's healing is almost unnoticed on D.Va now, because you heal 60HP and she gets 200+HP damage per second. I don't want to go further on Ana's topic, but when the hero can't be maintained by all of them but one - it's not good. We have similar hero to D.Va in terms of no-armor: RoadHog, but he has self-healing and doesn't suffer from that huge critbox. Sure, D.Va has her matrix, but it doesn't defend against beams + it doesn't defend in circular area + it lasts at most 4 seconds whereas every second without looks like time to search for a cover.


Reaper is supposed to beat d.va at close range. Do you thing Roadhog should get 400 armor too since Reaper melts him? Roadhog's hook is also a direct counter to D.va's defense matrix too. If you don't want to get melted, don't get hooked. And personally, I find Roadhog's critical hitbox far easier to hit since he bobs his head into his chest.


Roadhog can one shot Reaper as a counter to being vulnerable to him.

As for that "don't get hooked" comment - D.VA can't weave in and out of cover while firing like a normal character can - So she's basically a sitting duck.
01/09/2017 06:24 AMPosted by Doomfist
Reaper is supposed to beat d.va at close range.

Well, that seems to depend on who you ask. I'm not sure why Reaper suddenly was "intended" to be a tankbuster. Sure, that's the role he ended up with, but I don't think that was the designers' intent originally.

Do you thing Roadhog should get 400 armor too since Reaper melts him? Roadhog's hook is also a direct counter to D.va's defense matrix too. If you don't want to get melted, don't get hooked. And personally, I find Roadhog's critical hitbox far easier to hit since he bobs his head into his chest.
Roadhog vs. Reaper is another one of those matchups where individual skill and timing really comes into play. Reaper can really punish the hog, but if Roadhog manages to land his hook, it's lights out for Reaper.


Reaper was clearly intended to be more effective vs characters with larger hotboxes. The spread of his shotgun pellets makes him lethal vs tanks, but lackluster vs characters with smaller hitboxes outside of point blank range.

And Roadhog hitting reaper with his hook is a big if. A good reaper will flank, catch roadhog by surprise, and melt him in 2-3 shots before he can react. Even if you do hook reaper, you're almost certainly dead if you don't confirm the kill.

Anyways my point is that reaper's weapon was clearly intended to be more effective vs tanks than other characters.
01/09/2017 02:55 AMPosted by Pendant

Blues are looking most intently at the takeaways from a neutral party. One such as myself would be an example. Those who are indifferent and mostly unaffected by D.Vas place in the meta would obviously give the fairest feedback.

Symmetra should be F-Tier

01/07/2017 01:48 AMPosted by Pendant
Why does a purported FPS encourage characters like Symmetra? You aren't handing out an olive branch to players, you're actually enabling and hindering them.


01/07/2017 01:53 AMPosted by Pendant
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I'm saying she's philosophically wrong. Still a black eye for the game in tier F but at least out of the way.

No comment.


It is not nice to attack other people. Especially those who want only the best for you.
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Well, that seems to depend on who you ask. I'm not sure why Reaper suddenly was "intended" to be a tankbuster. Sure, that's the role he ended up with, but I don't think that was the designers' intent originally.

...Roadhog vs. Reaper is another one of those matchups where individual skill and timing really comes into play. Reaper can really punish the hog, but if Roadhog manages to land his hook, it's lights out for Reaper.


Reaper was clearly intended to be more effective vs characters with larger hotboxes. The spread of his shotgun pellets makes him lethal vs tanks, but lackluster vs characters with smaller hitboxes outside of point blank range.

And Roadhog hitting reaper with his hook is a big if. A good reaper will flank, catch roadhog by surprise, and melt him in 2-3 shots before he can react. Even if you do hook reaper, you're almost certainly dead if you don't confirm the kill.

Anyways my point is that reaper's weapon was clearly intended to be more effective vs tanks than other characters.


I thought it was clearly intended to be better at close range. As a side effect, tanks are hard to miss.

The flip side is that D.Va was clearly intended to be resistant to shotguns, because why else would she have 400 armour?
01/09/2017 06:49 AMPosted by Pendant

It is not nice to attack other people. Especially those who want only the best for you.

(Pretending that you haven't made dozens of "Mindless D.Va Fanboi" posts doing just that towards people who disagreed with you for a second:)

Pointing out that someone who literally created a thread saying a certain hero should be kept in F-Tier purely because they personally doesn't approve of her playstyle might not be as neutral and unbiased as they claim constitutes an "attack" now?
its simple really@ blizz take away that 100hp buff you added from no where oh look dva is balanced, and yes still has a crit box the size of the usa,
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Reaper was clearly intended to be more effective vs characters with larger hotboxes. The spread of his shotgun pellets makes him lethal vs tanks, but lackluster vs characters with smaller hitboxes outside of point blank range.

And Roadhog hitting reaper with his hook is a big if. A good reaper will flank, catch roadhog by surprise, and melt him in 2-3 shots before he can react. Even if you do hook reaper, you're almost certainly dead if you don't confirm the kill.

Anyways my point is that reaper's weapon was clearly intended to be more effective vs tanks than other characters.


I thought it was clearly intended to be better at close range. As a side effect, tanks are hard to miss.

The flip side is that D.Va was clearly intended to be resistant to shotguns, because why else would she have 400 armour?


Reaper was intended to be good at close range. He was also intended to be better against tanks because the wide spread of his shotguns ensures that they will always deal heavier damage to tanks than smaller characters. Reaper can melt a Winston at near-medium range while he has to be right next to a genji to do any damage whatsoever. He was intended to counter tanks, thus creating a tank that counters him throws the entire game out of balance and has lead to the triple tank meta becoming mandatory in season 3.
01/09/2017 06:46 AMPosted by Doomfist
Reaper was clearly intended to be more effective vs characters with larger hotboxes. The spread of his shotgun pellets makes him lethal vs tanks, but lackluster vs characters with smaller hitboxes outside of point blank range.
Not sure I agree. The spread of his shotguns makes him fairly effective against smaller targets as well. Basically, he's a hero that's easy to hit with.

And Roadhog hitting reaper with his hook is a big if. A good reaper will flank, catch roadhog by surprise, and melt him in 2-3 shots before he can react. Even if you do hook reaper, you're almost certainly dead if you don't confirm the kill.
Well, this is that "skill" bit that I was talking about. They are both characters that can quickly kill the other, so utilizing the character's skill set effectively becomes important to whether you win or not. Reaper should flank and wait until Roadhog is distracted, because if he tries to go 1 vs 1 it's very risky thanks to the hook. Roadhog should be observant, and if he hears Reaper rummaging about he should have his hook off cooldown.

And the same thing goes for the other tanks, if you read the edit in my previous post. Except for Winston, they all have abilities that can be used to counter Reaper, and a good Reaper player should be cautious about any of the tanks. The major difference where D.Va is concerned is that you have to deal with her in a slightly different fashion to the rest of the tanks. You have to bait out her defensive matrix, then wait until it's down and go for her critical hit location.
01/09/2017 06:58 AMPosted by Doomfist
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I thought it was clearly intended to be better at close range. As a side effect, tanks are hard to miss.

The flip side is that D.Va was clearly intended to be resistant to shotguns, because why else would she have 400 armour?


Reaper was intended to be good at close range. He was also intended to be better against tanks because the wide spread of his shotguns ensures that they will always deal heavier damage to tanks than smaller characters. Reaper can melt a Winston at near-medium range while he has to be right next to a genji to do any damage whatsoever. He was intended to counter tanks, this creating a tank that counters him throws the entire game out of balance and has lead to the triple tank meta becoming mandatory in season 3.


But D.Va's armour was nothing new, nor was it responsible for triple tank in the first place. It's an entire misconception that removing D.Va's armour is going to let Reaper kill tanks and change up the meta; unless Reaper can kill tanks faster than Ana can heal them it won't change.

As a change, it doesn't break up the meta and it just makes D.Va weak against the things she was resistant to and marginally stronger against the things she was already weak to (compared to pre-buff) but doesn't have the range to counter.
I'm not necessarily saying that it shouldn't be the case, but I don't understand why Reaper absolutely has to be equally effective against every tank, just like Lucio provides more of a problem for Tracer and Genji to deal with (and they have to approach him right). Surely there should be a finer-grained interplay between each of the different classes, and Reaper not be a one-stop-shop for busting any frontline a team throws at you.

I also don't remember this ever being brought up as a problem back when she only had 500 total HP...it was just one of her individual features, being a tank that Reaper is a bit less effective against.
ive mained D.Va pretty much since launch, but stopped playign Overwatch a couple of months ago. She basically alternates to useless to viable.

I've just come to the conclusion Blizzard has no clue how to properly balance the game. They keep it to where only a few heroes are viable, and when they nerf somebody its always dramatically overdone to the point it is just frustrating.

While I give credit to Blizzard for making a good multiplayer game, things such as this keeps me from returning to the game.

PS: D.Va's problem has always been an obvious one. Her crit box is too big. She never needed more or less armor, just decrease her crit box. Seeing that her damage just went down on top of losing armor in PTR...i really dont know if i will ever return to overwatch.

As for PTR itself, im not even sure it matters. They just force whatever update it is on the main game regardless of the feedback it seems.

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