PTR: Feedback on D.Va

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01/09/2017 11:22 AMPosted by RavenCries
01/09/2017 11:18 AMPosted by bladeofdarkn
Look, they changed both her damage AND her health.
So at the same time, she takes longer to kill people, AND loses the Meka faster.

If you increase the time it takes her to kill someone, then she NEEDS to be able to take punishment.
If She can't take as much punishment, then she NEEDS to kill things faster.
only ONE of these things should have been changed - not both.


Actually if you look at the DPS numbers resulting from the change, you can sort of see what Blizzard was going for. It's a really really minor tweak that needs to happen to change her DPS from insignificant to useful.


Im not seeing it

she is still fast to kill and she does less overall damage

if it was 10 bullets but 3 damage (just an example) still then i could see what they where going for and would have no issues.
Devs: "We want feedback from people who played on the PTR!"

*community provides countless threads with lots of feedback on ptr changes*

*devs completely ignore every thread created*

Devs: "These changes we made to the PTR are great! Looks like nobody has any issues, let's bring them all to live!"
01/09/2017 11:22 AMPosted by RavenCries
01/09/2017 11:18 AMPosted by bladeofdarkn
Look, they changed both her damage AND her health.
So at the same time, she takes longer to kill people, AND loses the Meka faster.

If you increase the time it takes her to kill someone, then she NEEDS to be able to take punishment.
If She can't take as much punishment, then she NEEDS to kill things faster.
only ONE of these things should have been changed - not both.


Actually if you look at the DPS numbers resulting from the change, you can sort of see what Blizzard was going for. It's a really really minor tweak that needs to happen to change her DPS from insignificant to useful.


Its worse in every aspect, though. PTR D.Va is punished for shooting headshots because more pellets now miss the target and a lot of heroes are very slim. It also affects her damage against armored targets, which means she is weaker against squishy heroes AND tanks.
You introduced several significant nerfs on D.Va at same time - this isn't a good idea. What's more important - one nerf synergizes with another. With damage nerf you made it so she has to go point blank range and with survivability nerf you made it so she melts in this range.


Sometimes I'm starting to wonder if basic critical thinking skills are missing in a lot of game designers. I'm not just knocking blizzard here, I've seen it in other games like LOL.

Oh well, since these changes are likely to go through, time to start the buff D.Va threads.
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Actually if you look at the DPS numbers resulting from the change, you can sort of see what Blizzard was going for. It's a really really minor tweak that needs to happen to change her DPS from insignificant to useful.


Can you explain the video that shows it as consistently slower to kill anything, though? Because your numbers show one thing but in practice it's another (like with the "fit between other tanks" part you keep bringing up).


Actually I did explain that. What the video showed was that at the extreme range her DPS was slower. That would be expected because you have a few bullets hitting the target and each bullet has less damage. That said because the number of bullets per shot was increased from 8 to 11, you'd expect that fall-off to happen later. In other words, while it's slower at 20 meter range, it is probably slightly faster at say 12 meters. This part of the explanation ignores critical hit damage.

The video to be honest isn't really helpful, it doesn't show how the numbers are interacting.

What Blizzard did was tighten up the range between the minimum and maximum damage for each bullet. Overall this means your damage would be more consistent however this excludes critical hit damage. Basically there are two results (as far as I can figure) of this, 1) the average DPS excluding critical hits went up from 104 DPS to 106 DPS and 2) The maximum crit damage you can get dropped significantly.

Because Blizzard lowered the top end damage for each bullet from 3 to 2, the maximum value you can get for crit damage dropped substantially. The end result is you're going to really feel that reduction once you factor in critical hits and it's going to feel really weak.

As I mentioned before, if they increase the lower bullet damage from 0.9 to 1 or 1.1 and increased the number of bullets per shot from 11 to 12, her average DPS will go up to 120-125 and her maximum crit damage would be restored to what it is on live.
01/09/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DannyCamz
Devs: "We want feedback from people who played on the PTR!"

*community provides countless threads with lots of feedback on ptr changes*

*devs completely ignore every thread created*

Devs: "These changes we made to the PTR are great! Looks like nobody has any issues, let's bring them all to live!"


Are you scared?
I stopped playing Reaper because of how Dva has been changed. Where it used to take some "duel" type of play between Dva and Reaper now it is just Dva charging in blasting bullets in your face until you wraith away. I could no longer get her out of her mech, no matter how I played. I dont believe the health revert AND the DPS change needs to happen, but something does indeed need to change. In her current build she is fearless solo against any player. I don't play her, but is from a Reaper perspective.
01/09/2017 09:36 AMPosted by ZenTactician
For the sake of clarity and conversation I link my post here. For all who have just arrived.
I would not have to keep doing this if OP would just converse with me as to why my explanation of the Pellet fire is incorrect.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752559736?page=18#post-357

Blue reticle yellow Dva is PTR.
White Reticle blue dva is LIVE
https://youtu.be/wBRi_HI0Vqw


Here - I've done a video as well,

01/07/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Angel
+ update: to illustrate,
Live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkXFloX0W4 (at 8 sec)
PTR version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JcCR0b5Cxo (at 13 sec)

- this is about - what's happening in ~10 and more meters. The circle is same, but the spread within the circle is not and the more damage individual pellet does - the better will be end result. Please, note - on close distance and on big targets it's almost not possible to see the difference, but on something small enough (like head of the bot) it's possible to see the difference.


- because what you do on your video is shooting from close distance to the wall where it's irrelevant how many pellets will hit. The issue I'm addressing is that even though the bound circle is same, distribution within circle is not and with less damage per pellet there will be less damage to small target. It's seen on the training bot head. That's from 10m, the most "forgiving" distance. Try doing it from further away, even ~12 meters - and it's becoming exponentially worse.
Regarding damage, I did some quick tests on the practice range yesterday.

At 10 meters, aiming for body shots only, the time to kill a bot was between 1.45 and 1.55 seconds on live, and 1.6 to 1.7 seconds on ptr.

At 20 meters, aiming just below the dark square on the bot's chest (getting as much of the bot inside the reticle as possible), time to kill was 4.3 to 4.9 seconds on live, and 5.5 to 6.5 on ptr. There's a lot more variance at longer ranges, since you'll get a random amount of headshots thrown in.
The problem of the patch is that we accumulate a critbox too important, a drastic reduction of our damage remotely, always a reduction of our speed in shooting mode and a drastic reduction of our resitance.

In fact I do not see the logic behind this patch.

Everything is done to make us a melee character while a whole series of nerfs forbids me to go to melee.

So what is our role now ?

Tank ? This is clearly unthinkable at the moment.

Rather Dps ? No more saw our damage and their reach.

I'm sorry to say that but for now your patch reminds me of the worst moments of Wow when some classes were deliberately buried for a long time for lack of idea to balance things.

Now if it is clearly this strategy that you choose today it is clear that it will very quickly make me leave the game.
01/09/2017 12:01 PMPosted by Uglesett
Regarding damage, I did some quick tests on the practice range yesterday.

At 10 meters, aiming for body shots only, the time to kill a bot was between 1.45 and 1.55 seconds on live, and 1.6 to 1.7 seconds on ptr.

At 20 meters, aiming just below the dark square on the bot's chest (getting as much of the bot inside the reticle as possible), time to kill was 4.3 to 4.9 seconds on live, and 5.5 to 6.5 on ptr. There's a lot more variance at longer ranges, since you'll get a random amount of headshots thrown in.


Problem is you can't do "quick tests" when you are talking about averages and dealing with RNG. You need to be rigorous in your setup else the results wont be representative or reproducible.

Though your results are likely reasonable.
01/09/2017 12:23 PMPosted by Uriel
So what is our role now ?

Tank ? This is clearly unthinkable at the moment.

Rather Dps ? No more saw our damage and their reach.

Even on live "tanking" will and should better be done by Reinhardt. If enemy team doesn't have Rein - sure, you can also allow yourself to have D.Va as a "tank", but if they do have one - no way, you have to run Rein as well, it's unthinkable to believe D.Va will be a primary tank in such circumstances.

Problem is that people reference to "many functions" that D.Va can perform. That is not false, but they always forget that she can do only one at a time and that some of them are just "formal" (like - yes, she can "tank" for entire 4 seconds). She is a bruiser with the capability of picking kills and punishing over-extended DPS heroes - much like Roadhog does (but he does it more consistently with the hook).
I would actually rather have much more significant dps at longer range than miniscule dps increase at 10m range. Let's face it, if you have range advantage you're in huge advantage on this game and it's one of the reasons why soldier is so hella good. Dva is one of the few tanks that have mobility and range she can take advantage of. Still being able to do threathening damage to solo pharah one of the reasons why pharah can't just keep nuking her for free ulti charge, without her range she's half as useful against pharah and simply good to counter her ulti.

It seems now tho devs want to force dva into 10m range confrontations rather than dva taking advantage of highground to still do decent amount of damage and being able to chase and kill targets outside of this 10m range. But they prolly made her way too squishy in said 10m range to do this anymore. I'm not sure why we got the movement speed increase while shooting if we're not supposed to be able to chase targets even a little bit.

Tbh if devs would rather dva be a frontline tank rather than be an annoying harrasser and chaser (like people constantly whining about magical dva diving 1v6, killing 2 and winning and going back), they could up the cd on her boosters. That way, dva players would have to be more conscious about when it's safe to dive and if they can get back out in one piece, give opposing team more time to kill dva before she has the chance to dive back out again, she has less chances of chasing you for the kill while at the same time not diminishing any of her potential she has on live. She could still do the same things... but daresay, would require more skill, coordination and game sense to do so as she would be more vulnerable for longer period of time without her escape tool. Dva on ptr when hacked is quite a dead dva, I am sure that she'd be so on live as well if she couldn't escape 1-2 second earlier from the fight. Also while she could still chase opponents, opposing players would have just a little bit more time to run away, diminishing her chances at securing kills unless you played smartly.

Also, if booster had a longer cd than winston's jump (which it technically has since booster goes on cd only after it's finished), it could make winston more useful as the specific dive tank rather than him competing for spot against dva and give him more of that unique niche he has, while not making dva useless as initiator in a dive.
01/09/2017 01:03 PMPosted by Angel
01/09/2017 12:23 PMPosted by Uriel
So what is our role now ?

Tank ? This is clearly unthinkable at the moment.

Rather Dps ? No more saw our damage and their reach.

Even on live "tanking" will and should better be done by Reinhardt. If enemy team doesn't have Rein - sure, you can also allow yourself to have D.Va as a "tank", but if they do have one - no way, you have to run Rein as well, it's unthinkable to believe D.Va will be a primary tank in such circumstances.

Problem is that people reference to "many functions" that D.Va can perform. That is not false, but they always forget that she can do only one at a time and that some of them are just "formal" (like - yes, she can "tank" for entire 4 seconds). She is a bruiser with the capability of picking kills and punishing over-extended DPS heroes - much like Roadhog does (but he does it more consistently with the hook).


I as a Dva main agree that Dva should replace Rainhart!
01/09/2017 09:50 AMPosted by Kafka
People thinking Reaper can counter D.VA right now completly fail to understand the meta.

I don't need to "understand the meta" for that argument, I have my fair share of Reaper's first hand experience busting D.Vas, what's so difficult about baiting a Matrix, flanking and then busting? D.Va has horrible turning speed while firing, you are not supposed to be on her face after the first couple of headshots, that mech is huge, any other D.Va mech that I don't destroy ends up flying away and that's still a good thing.

You know what removed Reaper from the meta? having to kill 3 tanks clumped together one after another with a major healer behind them, preventing me from picking soul orbs in the process, same with Winston, D.Va is not the core of the 3 tank meta, that's Ana and Roadhog 1.0, wanna jump on the Ana with Winston/Reaper? well too bad, 3 meatshields turn on you and kill you in seconds, Winston needs an adjustment to his bubble and Ana needs her nerf on biotic grenade, D.Va only needs her old healthpool back and she can keep her damage nerf.

Now that I think about it, anyone here plays every hero to a certain extent or is it abnormal to be able to use every hero? because setting aside my total time with each one I can do that, I can main one or two but it looks like these arguments boil down to "you main X so you are salty" or "you main X and don't know anything about the pain of maining Y which is outplayed by X", seriously.
01/09/2017 11:36 AMPosted by Pendant
01/09/2017 11:26 AMPosted by DannyCamz
Devs: "We want feedback from people who played on the PTR!"

*community provides countless threads with lots of feedback on ptr changes*

*devs completely ignore every thread created*

Devs: "These changes we made to the PTR are great! Looks like nobody has any issues, let's bring them all to live!"


Are you scared?


You should

Because if they ignore everything about this in the future when they touch your little favorite hero and nerf it in to garbage/f/troll/grief tier you are gonna spend countless hour making topics about how that change will be bad.

Something like Nerfing Tracer HP to 75. Or Nerfing Reinhart shield to only block 1000 DMG with a delay of 5 seconds.
..meanwhile, could I ask forum keepers to extend the thread? We're near 500 post limit. Thank you.
01/09/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Winterclaw
Sometimes I'm starting to wonder if basic critical thinking skills are missing in a lot of game designers. I'm not just knocking blizzard here, I've seen it in other games like LOL.

Game developers these days don't even play their games, you know, the main motivation that should come with the job, I bet none in the dev team would get past Bronze if they decided to play competitive.
01/09/2017 01:13 PMPosted by Angel
..meanwhile, could I ask forum keepers to extend the thread? We're near 500 post limit. Thank you.

We just need to link and make another, that's it.
I'll chime in on the D.Va damage discussion with my own test on bots, which I did from different ranges (5m, 10m, leaning on railing) and shooting at different spots
My results were:

Live:

5m:
head: 5 shots to take out the last 1 hp (as opposed to a notably larger amount of hp otherwise)
body: 9 to take out the last 1 hp

10m:

body: 8, sometimes 9
head: typically 7, 6-8
neck: 6-7

railing:

head: 9-11
upper body: 9-10
lower body: 10-11

PTR:

5m:
head: 5 shots
body: 10 to take out the last 1 hp

10m:
body: 9
head: 8
neck: 7

railing:
head: 12
upper body: 11
lower body: 12, sometimes 13 to take out the last 1 hp

Overall, seems consistent with the 8.33% decrease the math gets us. As a side note, the damage on PTR is indeed more consistent... consistently worse, that is.

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