PTR: Feedback on D.Va

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Here - I've done a video as well,

01/07/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Angel
+ update: to illustrate,
Live version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkXFloX0W4 (at 8 sec)
PTR version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JcCR0b5Cxo (at 13 sec)

- this is about - what's happening in ~10 and more meters. The circle is same, but the spread within the circle is not and the more damage individual pellet does - the better will be end result. Please, note - on close distance and on big targets it's almost not possible to see the difference, but on something small enough (like head of the bot) it's possible to see the difference.


- because what you do on your video is shooting from close distance to the wall where it's irrelevant how many pellets will hit. The issue I'm addressing is that even though the bound circle is same, distribution within circle is not and with less damage per pellet there will be less damage to small target. It's seen on the training bot head. That's from 10m, the most "forgiving" distance. Try doing it from further away, even ~12 meters - and it's becoming exponentially worse.


---You can skip to the bottom for TL;DR---

The distribution within the bound circle doesn't spread the pellets so far out that they leave immensely greater amounts of blank space.
It doesn't spread the pellets out to the point where they start hitting targets less.

Basically,
With less pellets in the bound circle, it does not mean the pellets are more concentrated towards the center. That does not make sense. I don't know where you are getting this idea and why.

Think of the distribution within the circle, the more dots that populate it,the more every dot has a chance to hit something.

The reason for this change was so that when you place your cross hair on an opponent and take a shot, it will feel like your shots are actually hitting.
Basically, the pellet change was done was done for greater consistency with her fusion canons.


Now for an explanation of what happened in your videos, when you took a shot at the head, lets say maybe 3 pellets hit it in both videos. Obviously the live version would result in more damage.
The reason being because of the damage multiplier on the pellets:

Live: 3(damage) X 8(pellets) = 24 damage
PTR: 2(damage) X 11(pellets) = 22 damage

You say there will be less damage to a small target?
Wrong. There will less damage to any and all targets. Regardless of range.

-----TL;DR------
The more dots in the circle, the higher you chance you have of hitting something. Especially if it's small.
By adding more dots in the bound circle, you increase your chances of hitting the crit box.

It has nothing to do with being "less accurate" as stated in your original post.
01/07/2017 06:37 AMPosted by Angel
However, with number of pellets increased, less of them are hitting the crit.box

According to your logic, if I kept the bound circle the same size, but reduced the number of pellets to 1 and had that 1 pellet shooting in a random area within the circle, I would have a great chance of hitting the crit box......

Doesn't make sense.
Blizzard has done the opposite, they increased the number of pellets. Pellets just do less damage.
The pellets are more consistent. Especially on smaller targets.
As stated in the developer patch notes:
The changes to her Fusion Cannons will result in a small overall
decrease in damage, but they should feel more consistent now.

With your claims, you are saying that if I added 10000 pellets to the circle without changing the circle's size I would have a lower chance of hitting a target if they are small.

But if I only have 8, suddenly my chances would increase.
Once again, that does not make sense.
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.
Oops sorry this thread was capped. It should be higher now.
Highly Rated
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Thanks for uncapping.

However, I'm unsure that not giving more armor to D.Va is a good idea. Can I just ask why you don't revert to 400a/100h? She wasn't considered hard to deal with back then, apparently. To be honest, I don't think D.Va players were even anticipating the health buff. I think reverting the health buff and keeping the movement buff (maybe damage nerf as well) is sufficient.

Thanks!
Highly Rated
Why not just revert it back to the 400/100 that she was at originally, no one complained about that
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


i.e. d.va changes are going live and she's back in crematorium tier
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.

Watching like
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4041/5128808207_21fed43fc1.jpg
Highly Rated
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Then... What is her role?

She's pretty much considered to be similar to Winston with the jump in and harass playstyle. But with her nerfed damage and survivability... What does she do? Discount Reinhardt? Harass the Snipers that never get picked in competitive? What is D.VA supposed to be?
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Use this comment to show Like/Dislike to the quote.
01/11/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Tsucksatgame
Then... What is her role?

She's pretty much considered to be similar to Winston with the jump in and harass playstyle. But with her nerfed damage and survivability... What does she do? Discount Reinhardt? Harass the Snipers that never get picked in competitive? What is D.VA supposed to be?


I would like to know this too
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Please. May I ask who D.Va is now intended to be the counter for?
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


if thats the case then why mei is allowed to do so but not d.va?
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.

I'm convinced that this change will make D.VA role's as dive tank totally redundant.
Highly Rated
My question is ,are the devs actually playing the game? Are they at a decent SR to know from first hand experience what they are doing or is this all theory and statistics?
There was a D.VA version that had more armor and seemed to be way more viable than she is now, but wasn't a must pick, yet we are getting told by the devs that armor would create problems.
The whole thing with the PTR to test changes and incorporate feedback from the community begins to feel like a sham. We have litteraly hundreds of threads giving detailed feedback about the D.VA changes and the huge impact it has on her viability yet it seems that she has to got live for a while until the devs are willing to look into her again. What is the point of a PTR, when the community has no input, doesn't get progress, or cosmetics transfered, doesn't get anything? This is just outsourced playtesting.
Which means all the endless topics full of videos, arguments and calculations against the nerf were written invain.

Meanwhile, roadhog got attention the day after ptr release.

Let's observe another x months of d. va as troll pick I guess. I was already used to it anyway
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts but as people as mentioned, what is D.Va's intended role now that overall her survivability is weaker? She can't really be a full frontline tank and being a flanking disruptor like Winston is gonna be more difficult
I have to wonder if any D.Va main have ever played as Winston. You want to feel limited in what comps you work with and what you can do? Try on Harambe for few hours.

D.Va still absolutely shreds any squishy targets and has incredible mobility. Add her defense matrix which can block a ton of ults and it's on a relatively low cooldown and you have a very effective hero.
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


My question is, if she was intended to be weaker against those types of attacks, why has she had 400 armor since launch, and why did an extra 100 health get put on top of her 100 health in November? Is it that she is now intended to be weaker against those types of attacks, but originally wasn't? Because before she seemed to counter those characters, not the other way around. Is this a shift in what she's suppose to be, or were her original numbers contrary to her intended role?
D.va tears are delicious
01/11/2017 06:04 PMPosted by Takuya
Which means all the endless topics full of videos, arguments and calculations against the nerf were written invain.

Meanwhile, roadhog got attention the day after ptr release.

Let's observe another x months of d. va as troll pick I guess. I was already used to it anyway


I know :/ Sad!

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