PTR: Feedback on D.Va

General Discussion
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01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


If I might, have you taken a look at this or its comments yet? Pretty large write up about her PTR and live state.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5n6uex/dva_damage_taken_live_vs_ptr_part_2_why_armor_is/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit

Would be nice if you guys would tell us what you are trying to make her do. Because as of now, I am fully convinced she is just going to be replaced by another tank, and the only people who will play her will be the people who main her. Just like she has been for the majority of this game.

She was never played before she was buffed, that is why you buffed her. Now you have nerfed her and made her worse than she was before you buffed her.

I don't think you are taking into account how much Ana and Soldier, as well as the current meta, are making her appear way stronger than she is. Why you would not just work on Ana first and then see where D.Va stood so you could satisfy everyone, I do not know or understand.

Making small changes is the point of a PTR, and now with you making this statement, it seems like all of the long and detailed feedback, with stats to back it up, that has been left by many users has gone in vain.
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.

Can I personally just say I hate armor as a concept?

I hate the fact that some heroes damage just doesnt mean as much because lol yellow hp.

I think what d.va needs honestly is someway to help sustain her HP, some sort of regen like Roadhog has except not to that degree. I personally don't think any support can actively heal her at a reasonable rate except Ana. Mercy takes 10 seconds, Zen takes 20, Lucio might as well not bother.

I also dont think DM is consistant enough to keep that damage off of her. but thats just me.
01/11/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Tsucksatgame
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Then... What is her role?

She's pretty much considered to be similar to Winston with the jump in and harass playstyle. But with her nerfed damage and survivability... What does she do? Discount Reinhardt? Harass the Snipers that never get picked in competitive? What is D.VA supposed to be?

Her role is legitimately to be similar to Winston; and hush with talking about survivability. She has a lower CD on her escape, more HP, and a way to defend her critbox, unlike Winston, who has to play around his shield, which can easily be destroyed quickly and enemies can just walk right in the shield anyways.

I've been saying this for ages: D.va mains, for the love of God, stop thinking she's a pure tank. Try Winston and see how similar he is supposed to be, and see how much worse he is than her.
They should buff her human form then, since they decided to throw her Mech in the fire.
It'd be even healthier to make more of the health types.

Some heroes should have high armor. Some heroes should be strong against armor.

If Reaper should deal with tanks, give him some bonus against armor. This will help him against all armored tanks now and in future.

As it stands I expect Roadhog to gain the most out of this because of his damage type being similar AND he can hook through Defense Matrix. Not exactly helping the tank meta.

At the risk of sounding melodramatic I won't be running DVa in comp anymore, too much risk the enemy will snowball if they pick Roadhog. This is based on my PTR experience over several games. He is too strong against her now, and his pick rate too high, for it to be worth it.
01/11/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Voltan

I've been saying this for ages: D.va mains, for the love of God, stop thinking she's a pure tank. Try Winston and see how similar he is supposed to be, and see how much worse he is than her.


Winston can attack and hide his critbox with his shield. He can hit multiple targets at once AND can move full speed while attacking.

Winston can attack one person at a time, Cant attack and defend AND has her movement speed reduced while attacking.

How is Winston worse than D.Va when these changes go live? From where im sitting D.Va is pretty much worse in every way now.
Why don't make Reaper have unique ability: bonus damage against shields and armour? That should easy to fix it if the devs want Reaper to be tank buster forever, without even drastically change any tanks in the game.
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


this is why no one bothers to play your !@#$ ptr
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


It's really a shame to see a dev spreading the meme that she had no weaknesses. Do you not play your game?

The reality is that Roadhog, Rein, Zarya, Symmetra and Mei are all viable counters against her and each team is guaranteed to have at least 2 of those heroes, if not more.

Now she will be extremely weak vs Zarya, Reinhardt, Roadhog, Winston, Symmetra, Mei, Tracer, Reaper, Torbjorn and Sombra. Basically every non-healer who has a decent pickrate (plus Sombra).

It's blatantly obvious that D.Va will not be viable with a list of counters that long, I'm not sure how you can't see that.
01/11/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Voltan
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Then... What is her role?

She's pretty much considered to be similar to Winston with the jump in and harass playstyle. But with her nerfed damage and survivability... What does she do? Discount Reinhardt? Harass the Snipers that never get picked in competitive? What is D.VA supposed to be?

Her role is legitimately to be similar to Winston; and hush with talking about survivability. She has a lower CD on her escape, more HP, and a way to defend her critbox, unlike Winston, who has to play around his shield, which can easily be destroyed quickly and enemies can just walk right in the shield anyways.

I've been saying this for ages: D.va mains, for the love of God, stop thinking she's a pure tank. Try Winston and see how similar he is supposed to be, and see how much worse he is than her.


He doesn't aim. He has a shield that can protect from a hook also DVA bomb. He has a lot more mobility so shooting him is much harder than DVA. He has a much faster and safer get away tactic. He jumps incredibly fast. His ultimate in certain maps where there is a Clift is awesome.
01/11/2017 06:12 PMPosted by Pickles
01/11/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Voltan

I've been saying this for ages: D.va mains, for the love of God, stop thinking she's a pure tank. Try Winston and see how similar he is supposed to be, and see how much worse he is than her.


Winston can attack and hide his critbox with his shield. He can hit multiple targets at once AND can move full speed while attacking.

Winston can attack one person at a time, Cant attack and defend AND has her movement speed reduced while attacking.

How is Winston worse than D.Va when these changes go live? From where im sitting D.Va is pretty much worse in every way now.

As I said, someone can easily just walk right in the shield and shoot him. Also, D.va's damage is much better than Winston's. Also, her defense isn't limited to the amount of damage she takes, which is insane when you think about it; Winston's is. If the enemy team just shoots at Winston's shield, it'll go down much faster than 4 seconds. Also, it can't absorb nearly every ult in the game.

Stop with your knee-jerk reaction. You literally have 1 hour as Winston. You barely even have any room to talk about what Winston can and can't do. Try him for a couple hours and come back and talk about balance.

You D.va mains generally have very low playtime as Winston, so you all generally don't seem to realize how bad Winston is, and yet how similar his playstyle is meant to be to D.va.

But alas, no one cares about the monkey because he's not a cute Korean teenage girl. :^)
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.


Confused about the changes still.
Whats her role going forward?
Shes too squishy to dive in and Winston will do that job better.

She cant Front line tank due to short DM time and Roadhog just destroying her.
She cant chase flankers because half of them can successfully 1v1 her with the armor/damage nerf.

What do you want her to do?
Sit behind rein and absorb shots every now and then? What kind of play style is that?

01/11/2017 06:16 PMPosted by Voltan

As I said, someone can easily just walk right in the shield and shoot him. Also, D.va's damage is much better than Winston's. Also, her defense isn't limited to the amount of damage she takes, which is insane when you think about it; Winston's is. If the enemy team just shoots at Winston's shield, it'll go down much faster than 4 seconds. Also, it can't absorb nearly every ult in the game.

[/quote]

One of the people i play with mains Winston. I know what a good Winston can do, ive seen it in action.

Baiting people to follow you through your bubble shield so you can deal maximum damage while minimizing damage taken is something a lot of winstons dont even bother to do. If people apparently cant take out a 600hp crittable hero, surely they cant take out the bubble shield THAT fast?

So youre saying when this patch hits Live D.Va will still be doing a better job than Winston at diving?
Her role is the same, tank 600 hp of damage that would otherwise kill your DPS/support/defence heroes, Defence Matrix to save teammates from ganks (using her thrusters to *dive* back to supports for instance) Countering Ults like High Noon, Missile Barrage and Whole Hog etc. Nuke to clear and area or combo for a multikill/teamwipe.

She counters Widow and Hanzo and Genji with her mobility, essentially vs. verticality advantageous enemies.

She busts Reindharts shield in chokes, and protects the whole team in speed-boosted advances as a deathball through a choke.

She eats the dreaded Zarya ult, Ana Grenade and stops Ana healing her whole team with defence matrix by eating her darts! (denying 80 health per dart!! 120 if boosted and the initial 100 heal to all in the area)

I get frustrated with DVa players who play like a DPS and leave support players and DPS to die while they fly off to "farm" Gold Medals even though we lose.

I look forward to my Dva tanks actually tanking and peeling for me now, and helping the team in their intended role, *diving* around the team's engagement area *Tanking*!!

Thanks Blizzard, for all your hard work!
If she's not meant to survive a 1v1 dive, what is she supposed to be doing? Ok, she can block some ults, but what is she doing the rest of the match? Why does she have boosters?
01/07/2017 07:54 AMPosted by Ceratisa
01/07/2017 07:52 AMPosted by infamous067
I dont understand, I thought DVA was tank, not dps. I feel her health should stay the way it is but she definetly needs the damage nerf. Why is DVA able to melt anyone the way she does right now? Why go dps when DVA does insane damage at close range and enough armor to back her up? At this moment DVA can actually 1v1 a reaper and win with plently of armor, defense matrix only adds more to her survivability so do you understand why DVA needed this nerf? Lets not even bring ana to this because ana with her grenades made DVA unstoppable. Maybe her armor could stay the same but I totally agree to DVA getting the damage nerf, its needed and shes a tank, not dps.
D.Va could always 1v1 reaper


Agreed. The nerf should have been on her damage, and not her health.
01/11/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Slade

If I might, have you taken a look at this or its comments yet? Pretty large write up about her PTR and live state.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5n6uex/dva_damage_taken_live_vs_ptr_part_2_why_armor_is/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit

Would be nice if you guys would tell us what you are trying to make her do. Because as of now, I am fully convinced she is just going to be replaced by another tank, and the only people who will play her will be the people who main her. Just like she has been for the majority of this game.

She was never played before she was buffed, that is why you buffed her. Now you have nerfed her and made her worse than she was before you buffed her.

I don't think you are taking into account how much Ana and Soldier, as well as the current meta, are making her appear way stronger than she is. Why you would not just work on Ana first and then see where D.Va stood so you could satisfy everyone, I do not know or understand.

Making small changes is the point of a PTR, and now with you making this statement, it seems like all of the long and detailed feedback, with stats to back it up, that has been left by many users has gone in vain.


She is still overall stronger than she was before she gained 100 hp, just weaker vs. specific targets such as Reaper. She will be replaced by another tank in some situations, but she will also replace another tank in other situations.

Her matrix is still one of the best ways to shutdown certain ults, such as Soldier: 76, McCree or Roadhog. Not only that, but shes much better at protecting some friendly players' ults than someone like Reinhardt. For example, running matrix on top of a friendly ulting Genji, Junkrat tire, or Pharah is very strong and something that tanks with more static defenses (like Reinhardt or Winston) aren't as good at.
01/11/2017 06:08 PMPosted by Fattius
D.va tears are delicious


So were yours trying to nerf her.
01/11/2017 05:23 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
This is great feedback, thanks.

Keep in mind her spread didn't actually change, but her shots 'fill in' her spread more evenly now, meaning her damage per shot is generally more consistent. For example, in the video provided from the live game, if you take that same shot multiple times you'll see a greater diversity in damage results than you would on the PTR, because sometimes some of those bullets would just miss. Overall though, the change to her damage is intended to be a small nerf.

As for her health/armor, the bottom line is shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer. The game is a lot healthier when heroes have strengths and weaknesses versus other heroes. As she was, it was common to hear people ask 'What do I do about D.Va?'. People often would try to use Zarya or Roadhog, since they both have the potential to deal high damage and pierce her Matrix, but even those answers were marginal at best. Heroes like Reaper that are generally supposed to be good at taking down tanks weren't very effective because of all the armor they had to get through. With lowered armor, she now has more legitimate counters and she still counters many heroes and abilities in the game, especially considering her Defense Matrix wasn't touched.

I understand that people feel like she may be too weak overall after these changes, and if that turns out to be the case we'll look at helping her out. That said, that help isn't likely to come back in the form of a bunch of armor, since that would just put us back the problems we had to begin with. We'll be watching her impact closely after these changes.

I would like to know why you didn't simply revert her HP buff to put her back at 100 health + 400 armor.
01/11/2017 06:17 PMPosted by NIDCLXVI
HEr role is the same, tank 600 hp of damage that would otherwise kill your DPS heroes, Defence Matrix to save teammates from ganks (using her thrusters to dive back to supports for instance) Countering Ults like High Noon, Missile Barrage and Whole Hog etc. Nuke to clear and area or combo for a multikill/teamwipe.

She counters Widow and Hanzo and Genji with her mobility, essentially verticality advantageous enemies.

She busts Reindharts shield in chokes, and protects the whole team in speed-boosted advances as a deathball through a choke.

She eats the dreaded Zarya ult, Ana Grenade and stops Ana healing her whole team with defence matrix by eating her darts!

I get frustrated with DVa players who play likema DPS and leave support players and DPS to die while they fly off to "farm" Gold Medals even though we lose.

I look forward to my Dva tanks actually tanking and peeling for me now, and helping the team in their intended role, diving around the team's engagement area Tanking!!

Thanks Blizzard, for all your hard work!


Couldn't have stated this better myself.
01/11/2017 06:09 PMPosted by Voltan
01/11/2017 05:53 PMPosted by Tsucksatgame
...

Then... What is her role?

She's pretty much considered to be similar to Winston with the jump in and harass playstyle. But with her nerfed damage and survivability... What does she do? Discount Reinhardt? Harass the Snipers that never get picked in competitive? What is D.VA supposed to be?

Her role is legitimately to be similar to Winston; and hush with talking about survivability. She has a lower CD on her escape, more HP, and a way to defend her critbox, unlike Winston, who has to play around his shield, which can easily be destroyed quickly and enemies can just walk right in the shield anyways.

I've been saying this for ages: D.va mains, for the love of God, stop thinking she's a pure tank. Try Winston and see how similar he is supposed to be, and see how much worse he is than her.

How does having 360° shield to dance around while also attacking multiple enemies put Winston at a disadvantage? Defence Matrix is basically worthless if you're trying to play like Winston.

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