PTR: Feedback on D.Va

General Discussion
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Compared to the actual flankers in the offense class, Reaper is slow, loud, and has no easy way of bailing out of a fight that he is losing. This was not a problem in Season 2 before the DVA health buff. Prior to that, Reaper v DVA was not a clear disadvantage to Reaper. This is important because Reaper counters the other tanks quite well unless Roadhog saved his hook exclusively for me.

Now with the increased health, a defense matrix that can be toggled, increased speed while firing, the flight ability that allows her to jump in or out of the fight at her leisure, and 2 lives, she shuts Reaper down completely and can wreck squishy heroes just as well as him.

Now the DVA mains are thinking, "What is the problem with Reaper having a hard counter?"

HeHe already had plenty of heroes that could fight him on equal or somewhat better terms. Pharah after her buff was a hard counter. Properly played, Genji was a hard counter too. McCree had the tools to fight Reaper. Symmetra buffed, Tracer, and Mei are close calls. The pattern is obvious, those are all DPS heroes. Why pick those when you can use DVA to do Reaper's job more effectively AND counter him? So DVA takes a slot from a DPS hero and wrecks non-tank. This cemented the tank meta.
She really didn't need the nerfs in general, she was fine. No idea where the "OUT DPSES THE DPSES!" comes from (People seem to like throwing that statement around a lot it seems, I saw it a lot with Symmetra as well). She can only do damage literally on top of you, and the damage done / eliminations come from peppering the enemy team with tickle damage from a distance, and likely from Reinhardt shields which are large so it's literally like hitting the broad side of a barn.

She only hurts when she's riding your butt.

She's just an annoyance, and does just enough damage to generate enough threat to make people attack her. As a Tank is supposed to do. Just look at other competitive team games such as League of Legends, where Tanks have to spend resources on upgrading their damage. If they don't, and they purely focus on tank upgrades/items, then they cannot generate enough threat to get people to attack them to the point people literally ignore them until they're all that is left.

Much like people do to D.Va, sometimes even in her current buffed state.

If you want to slightly tone her down while keeping people happy, they could reduce the health from 200 to 50, with 50 more armor than now (450 Armor 50 Health, 500 total. -100) and reduce the critical hitbox to be just D.Va's apparently exposed hands, rather than the cockpit glass itself - Which obviously should be well designed to protect the pilot. But her hands are not protected. Making for two smaller critboxes. They're a little away from center mass as well, making it less reflexive to hit her critbox.

Or they could reduce the Crit damage the mekka takes. Since hey, they're shooting a Mekka not D.Va right?

Either way, the majority reason why people complain about D.Va isn't that she is overpowered, it's that she is annoying. That's her job, to be annoying. She gets onto someone and sticks to disrupt and keep them from doing what they want to do, and surviving long enough to do so effectively. In practice the person she's disrupting may or may not die, and D.Va is just as likely to die as they are. That seems like a sweet spot to me, with an even risk/reward. Only problem is people who get annoyed this way turn around and complain about their playstyle being messed with. Even if D.Va counters them. Like Widows... And reapers. Reaper is NOT specifically a "Tank Buster". He's a high dps shotgun burst character. What does armor counter? shotguns. What is D.Va? Literally a walking suit of armor with an anti-burst defense matrix that makes people have to actually think about how they want to hit Q and win.
Again, Reaper's primary goal is to flank behind enemy lines and kill squishy targets (healers, snipers, other attackers in bad areas). And again, I believe that Blizzard's intention for Reaper was to be the sneaky killer that eliminates supportive heroes rather than some bunker buster against tanks. He excels at killing whoever is healing the tank and there are currently 2 tanks he excels at "busting": Roadhog (which is sort of a 50-50 if you get the drop on him first) and Winston (he's squishy but you have to be quick to kill him).

....But hey, I'm gold what do I know?
01/07/2017 11:18 AMPosted by punisher
Compared to the actual flankers in the offense class, Reaper is slow, loud, and has no easy way of bailing out of a fight that he is losing. This was not a problem in Season 2 before the DVA health buff. Prior to that, Reaper v DVA was not a clear disadvantage to Reaper. This is important because Reaper counters the other tanks quite well unless Roadhog saved his hook exclusively for me.

Yes, and D.Va can not even crouch so not to be "loud". in S2 D.Va was not a problem to Reaper or any other hero since he could just hit and run her due to extremely slow movement of her during fire.

01/07/2017 11:18 AMPosted by punisher
Now with the increased health, a defense matrix that can be toggled, increased speed while firing, the flight ability that allows her to jump in or out of the fight at her leisure, and 2 lives, she shuts Reaper down completely and can wreck squishy heroes just as well as him.

D.Va was an easy target and suddenly became not so easy. But I don't know what are you talking about, on full health it was not a heavy favored match-up for D.Va. I definitely do not agree with her "hard-countering" him. She could win a duel due to the fact she ejects and has "second life" - but if that's the case, Reaper could disengage long before leaving her without MEKA.

01/07/2017 11:18 AMPosted by punisher
Genji was a hard counter too

01/07/2017 11:18 AMPosted by punisher
Symmetra buffed, Tracer

Symmetra.. I don't know why you call her a counter to Reaper. Genji - is just a different category hero and they hardly compete. It all way too situational (team combo, position, circumstances) to decide who wins. It definitely doesn't mean Genji hard-counters Reaper.
im going to contribute to the thread of my experience last night both as dva as from a healer's (ana)point of view

as a dva like the OP states because of the increase pellets, a lot of times it felt the extra pellets is just missing and makes headshoting very very inconsistent and hard. it also makes tracking mobile smaller targets like lucio extremely hard. the damage nerf felt like 30 percent in action on a hero that already felt lackluster in the damage department in live due to her range requirement

because of the lack of damage dva needs to be closer than ever to her enemies compare to live which brings in another problem. because of the armor hp switch and the fact her crit box is center mass this leads to a lot of exchanges where that most of your pellets wont hit the target crit but the target can hit your crit spot reliably she will be always at a disadvantage and lose most 1v1 engagement because of this on heroes she supposely counters (widow,hanzo,torb)or at least have resistence against (heroes that uses small arms fire)

this leads straight to a situation where she needs to disengage but running away means leaving her now squishy behind wide open or by using a defensive matrix now feels like have 1-2 meters dead zone which most character can just abuse.

she loses her mech

i also played ana and saw the battlefield from a healer's point of view. if i were to focus on healing dva i need to burn a lot of my cds and heals on her just to keep her up while my teamate suffers dangerous damage. because of this she became an extremely unfavorable target to heal during combat.

the reality is that dvas on the ptr right now spend probably 40-60 percent on mini dvas if she wants to contribute to the front line or dive and is often the first to go during a group fight. this is especially apparent when i see it from a healer's point of view

because she spends a majority of time now on foot and can be abused when trying matrix 76 you see a lot of nano visor team wipe because dva cant do her job properly. judging from the tone of a lot of players both enemy and friends, a lot of people are upset about the nano visor hitting and ambushing them from all angles and have no time to react because if the dva flies to matrix the 76 he will abuse the new defensive matrix deadzone and get her out of her mecha and continue to rampage with his nano visor.

as a dva player from late s1 to s3, her ptr state is actually worst off then the season 2 version after the "flick" nerf
01/07/2017 07:29 AMPosted by TimySch
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.


She only has survivability in that situation when Ana grenades her. Not every DPS should be able to solo a tank.
01/07/2017 12:02 PMPosted by GaleWeathers
01/07/2017 07:29 AMPosted by TimySch
OP, you are suffering the nerf because of your spoiled playstyle due to DVa having OP survivability. No hero should be able to flank or charge in alone, survive the focus and get out.

A tank should not reliably counter DPS hero or flank and get out.

Not to mention that she has one of the best ultimates for area denial/damage.

All in all with the nerf you will need a less aggressive playstyle, which suits better for a tank.


She only has survivability in that situation when Ana grenades her. Not every DPS should be able to solo a tank.


ana is actually a pretty big enabler for her on live (i use ana mostly to get my weekly loot boxes). one can just test it out on 3v3. the power differential of dva is night and day when there is ana or no ana. if there is an ana she can survive focus fire by 2-3 people but withtout she can barely 1v1 against roadhog and 76 its crazy
The consistent theme here is that nothing ever !@#$ing dies, so people are trying to find ways to kill %^-*. And the reason nothing ever dies is because 1.) tanks have a large health pool and 2.) because Ana can keep these tanks alive for ridiculous amounts of time. At this point, I start to question the people that don't think Ana is the problem. Are you all Ana mains that don't want to see your favorite hero nerfed? Do you all enjoy watching and playing the triple/quad tank meta? Or do you honestly think that the healer that can heal a Reinhardt from 1 health to 500 health in less than 3 seconds isn't the cause of the tank meta? And do you REALLY think that Mercy could sustain the healing that would be needed to run a tank meta? Lol. That's laughable. Along with the fact that Mercy is infinitely easier to kill than Ana, I have a hard time believing you think that Mercy could replace Ana in the tank meta and the triple/quad tank comp would still be dominant.

TL;DR: Tank meta has been around long before D.Va was good. Reinhardt has been a staple in almost every comp since the beginning of the game. Roadhog wasn't considered that great until the tank meta became a thing. Ana's healing is ridiculous and the best way to utilize a ridiculously good healer is to give that healer a ridiculous amount of !@#$ to heal.


From Reddit.
hp should be 300/300, dmge nerf should be reverted, it's so easy and they don't want to do it
d.va shouldn't be doing a lot of damage. She has high mobility, high health, and a powerful defensive utility option.

Tanks aren't Damage Dealers.

You should be happy you have mobility near to winstons while doing vastly more damage than him and just being better than him.
01/07/2017 12:26 PMPosted by Freshmeat
d.va shouldn't be doing a lot of damage. She has high mobility, high health, and a powerful defensive utility option.

Tanks aren't Damage Dealers.

You should be happy you have mobility near to winstons while doing vastly more damage than him and just being better than him.


this type of rhetoric tells me you dont play her and dont understand her. because you have no experience with her you cannot benchmark the ptr correctly

her weapon never did much damage past close mid range. she only did enough damage at close range for zone control but the damage was never extreme and she slows down when shooting which no other hero suffers because apparently unlimited ammo warrants that
In light of the changes in 1.5 it's an overnerf because they said she was weak.
This reverts the changes and even change drastically the range at which she operates offensively. They were unneded survivability changes and now unneded nerfs.

If we have to look at what they want Dva to be with these changes is quite evident: she's the anti-dps, but you cannot remove all dps and you cannot both kill and deny dps and supports while engaging in the middle of the enemy team.
Her role is not to kill soldiers and mcrees, it's to deny them kills while your team ranged dps help you to kill them.

As it is now, Dva can easily replace winston in getting the backline squishies dead, she's even more effective despite not having a 360 degree shield, easier cooldowns to work around, and higher dps. This way she has to engage after the opponents pick a target and she's going t obe a disruptor rather than a bruiser.

So, if they avoided to make dva fotm there was no need for this change. And the nerf to ana is clearly not enough to dethrone tank meta.
If she has representation only if too strong then I'm fine not seeing her in pro games.
It's great that you provided all this info for the devs but sadly they don't give a !@#$ and even if they bother to read this thread, they'll either ignore it or tell us that we haven't given it a chance yet and to basically suck it up. I'm kinda fed up of this %^-* tbh but it is what it is
Here is my feedback as someone who has played over 150 hours of D.va since this game has come out. (I was going to post this on the other thread but it seems to have capped out so I'm posting on yours :)

After seeing the thread and seeing Jeff's reply about lack of people on PTR and wanting more feedback I went and played 10 games - 5 on PTR and 5 on Live - All with Dva. I played 10 quickplay games (So they'd be a bit quicker I suppose)

Here were my matches:
PTR

Game 1 - LOSS - Lijang Tower - 3 Rounds
Dmg - 4.7k (Bronze)
Kills - 24
Dmg Blocked - 6.4k
Mech's Called - 3
Deaths - 9 (3 to RoadHog, 4 to S76, 1 to McCree and 1 to Sombra)
Team Healers - Mercy and Ana
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? No.

Game 2 - Loss - Oasis - 3 Rounds
Dmg - 5.6k (Silver)
Kills 21 - (Gold)
Dmg Blocked - 10.2k
Deaths - 8 (3 to RoadHog, 2 to Pharah, 1 to Junkrat, 1 to Sombra, 1 to McCree)
Mech's Called - 1
Team Healers - Mercy and Zen
***Got card for Dmg Blocked
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? I did manage to block quite a bit of damage, however, I felt like I was dead too often (or out of Mech) to help team push in.

Game 3 - Loss - Watch Point - Attack (1 Checkpoint)
Dmg - 4.4k (Bronze)
Kills - 20 (Gold)
Dmg Blocked - 4.5k
Mech's Called - 4
Deaths - 8 (2 to Roadhog, 2 to Reaper, 2 to Genji, 1 to Zenyatta, 1 to Pharah)
Team Healers - No Healers
***Card for Self Destruct Kills (5)
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? No.

Game 4 - Victory - Numbani Defense
Kills - 10 (No medal)
Dmg - 2.7 (Bronze)
Dmg Blocked - 2.3k
Deaths - 1 (Widowmaker)
Mech's Called - 3
Team Healers - Ana and Lucio
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? No

Game 5 - LOSS - Numbani Attack
Dmg - 3.4k
Kills - 6
Dmg Blocked - 2k
Mech's Called - 2
Deaths 7 (3 to S76, 1 to Ana, 1 to Symmetra, 1 to DVA)
Team Healers - Zen and Ana
**Card for 3 Gold Medals
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? No.

LIVE

Game 1 - LOSS - King's Row - Attack
Kills - 6
Dmg - 4.4k (Silver)
Dmg Blocked - 4.8k
Mech's Called - 6
Deaths 3 (1 DVA, 2 (forgot to record ><)
Team Healers - Mercy
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? Iffy on this one - stayed alive more often, but was hard to push in with Roadhog as other tank and 1 healer.
**POTG

Game 2 - Victory - Illios - 2 Rounds
Kills - 17 (Silver)
Dmg - 9k (Gold)
Blocked - 3.6k
Mech's Called - 5
Deaths 1 (1 Genji)
Team Healers - Ana and Lucio
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? Yes.

Game 3 - LOSS - Hanamura - Defense
Kills - 10 (Gold)
Dmg - 8.4k (Gold)
Dmg Blocked - 10.4k
Mech's Called - 9
Deaths 4 (1 Symmetra, 1 Winston, 1 McCree, 1 Bastion)
Team Healers - Ana and Zen
**4 Gold Medals
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? Yes - I managed to stall out on the last point for nearly 4 or so minutes while blocking/doing ok damage.

Game 4 - Victory - Anubis Attack
Kills - 6 (Silver)
Dmg - 1.9k (Bronze)
Dmg Blocked - 4.8k
Mech's Called - 1
Deaths 3 (1Dva, 1 S76, 1 Hanzo)
Team Healers - Ana and Zen
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? This was a really quick game so it was hard to say.

Game 5 - Victory - Lijang Tower 3 rounds
Kills - 36
Dmg - 23.5k
Blocked - 9.6k
Mech's Called - 12
Deaths 3 (1 Reaper, 2 Reinhardt)
Team Healers - Mercy and Zenyatta
** Dmg Card
Did I feel like a benefit to my team? This game felt gooooood.

Overall thoughts
PTR
Felt like I was out of Mech a lot more often
Often died right after popping out of Mech
Felt like I was always building ult charge for Call Mech rather than regular ult
Because I was out of Mech so much, or running back from dying, I never felt like I could use my ult wisely
Charging Call Mech seemed slower in PTR games
I couldn't defend my team the way I normally do - ie: Boosting in to DM someone who got hooked, DMing ultimates, shielding Rein when his shield went down, etc.
Perhaps my damaged blocked was more in the PTR games, but I felt like that was only because I was constantly spamming DM to stay alive - as you can see, I was more often dead as well
Getting hacked was even more devastating
Zen orb was even more devastating

I wasn't having fun as I felt useless - and I have been playing D.Va in competitive since S1.

Live
On live I feel like I can actually tank for my team because I'm not constantly out of Mech
Caling Mech back seems quicker
I can lead a charge onto a point because a healer can reasonably keep up with the damage I am taking
I can actually help stall out on overtime (Resonably) until my team catches up
I honestly feel like I do the best with two other tanks on the team
I can better think out when to use my ult because I'm not always dead
I'm able to better defend my supports
I can punish DPS for being out of place or overextended
I can disrupt a sniper

On PTR I felt like I literally couldn't do any of the above things. Please Jeff, consider the tuning you're going to make to Dva. I think she was shinning because of Ana and because of the 3 tank meta. I really don't think she is justified in the drastic changes before we see how Ana makes an impact to the meta and how RoadHog changes (He is a massive counter to D.Va on ptr when she already is well known to have one of the strongest counters in the game - Zarya - and both are already played a lot as well)

I hope this helps with feedback.
In other words, the patch is an indirect buff to 76.

That's all it is.
01/07/2017 12:48 PMPosted by BrokenWeiner
In other words, the patch is an indirect buff to 76.

That's all it is.


Ah yes, something I forgot to put in my above post - S76 just shreds D.Va's Mech from a distance and there is nothing you can do about it since you can't keep DM up for that long. If he's around, I felt like I had to hide most of the time or die. Really not fun :(
Yes, and D.Va can not even crouch so not to be "loud". in S2 D.Va was not a problem to Reaper or any other hero since he could just hit and run her due to extremely slow movement of her during fire.
DVA needed some changes to help overall performance, no argument here.
D.Va was an easy target and suddenly became not so easy. But I don't know what are you talking about, on full health it was not a heavy favored match-up for D.Va. I definitely do not agree with her "hard-countering" him. She could win a duel due to the fact she ejects and has "second life" - but if that's the case, Reaper could disengage long before leaving her without MEKA.
She does good damage in cqb, has the ability to block Reaper's shots, mitagtes his damage, can now take additional shots, and can chase Reaper down or escape from him. How is that not a hard counter?

If Reaper uses wraith form to bail out, he has to be close to his team. That means his optimal play style is front line DPS with the ability to set up an ambush. Not flanking like Genji or Tracer
Symmetra.. I don't know why you call her a counter to Reaper. Genji - is just a different category hero and they hardly compete. It all way too situational (team combo, position, circumstances) to decide who wins. It definitely doesn't mean Genji hard-counters Reaper.
I did not say that Symmetra was a counter. I said she was equal. Both excel in cqb and both will bunnyhop. The main difference is that Reaper's damage is consistent but Symmetra does not have to aim and her damage increases the longer the fight goes on.

Genji has range, vastly superior mobility, and deflect. If both heroes see each other at the same time and duel, how does Reaper win?

Genji is indisputably a flanker that hunts squishies, and Reaper is not as you just admitted. People tell me he is not a tankbuster so what exactly is his niche?

You also neglected to address my point about DVA becoming a hard counter to Reaper effective cementing the tank meta.
01/07/2017 12:48 PMPosted by BrokenWeiner
In other words, the patch is an indirect buff to 76.

That's all it is.


If you run the numbers, D.Va is actually stronger with 400 health 200 armour than she is with 400 armour 100 health against S76 at close range. This is especially true if he is using his helix rocket and gets headshots.

From longer distances D.Va is stronger with the armour. They made her better at close engagements but worse at further. As she's a short ranged hero with great means of closing gaps it's probably an overall buff.
I think a discussion about what tanks are needs to happen. My personal opinion is no tank should be unfavoured in a 1v1 close quarters against any offense hero. Defense heroes should be favoured in close quarters 1v1 vs any tank. Mei can take d.va down, rein too. This is the way it should be. Torb, junk, etc... But the whole point of a tank is "deny or create space and draw agro from the enemy team". There is no way to do that if tanks are intended to be 1v1d by all offense heroes. The idea should be "take down the tank in a group, not alone", otherwise they can just walk through without punishment.

D.va did need changes, but these are the wrong ones. I actually think they should rethink her as a front-liner who can compete with rein and rework the nerf to emphasize "you can fly up to be parallel with your team and project your defense matrix at 90° in front of them to protect, not to flank, then jump down to block more closely when the fight breaks out. That would be fine. I mean maybe not that, but my point is first they need to decide on her role, then they need to tweak her kit to fit it and discourage stepping outside of it. These changes though, feel like they aren't really attached to a vision of what exactly they want her to be doing. They feel like a hasty solution to a problem that has not actually been fully understood.
01/07/2017 11:43 AMPosted by to0ty

because she spends a majority of time now on foot and can be abused when trying matrix 76 you see a lot of nano visor team wipe because dva cant do her job properly. judging from the tone of a lot of players both enemy and friends, a lot of people are upset about the nano visor hitting and ambushing them from all angles and have no time to react because if the dva flies to matrix the 76 he will abuse the new defensive matrix deadzone and get her out of her mecha and continue to rampage with his nano visor.


I totally called it that this is exactly what would happen when I saw the changes. Soldier is going to have a field day when the ptr changes go live. Dva was one of the best chars to go even with soldier, especially his ulti and keep him in check from wrecking her whole team with his range from random flank points, on ptr seems like dva is just another way of feeding his ulti charge.

Soldier nerf inc, so I can scratch another character from my playlist.

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