D.Va PTR changes going to live...a reflection

General Discussion
Now that it seems imminent that D.Va PTR changes will go to live. I will like to reflect the possible consequences on the game, and why I think the nerf, though necessary was misplaced and strategically flawed in implementation.

Sorry this will be a bit long as I will try to also answer the notes of the developers and make this my final post on the matter.

First of all I think the overall purpose of the nerf was indeed needed. D.Va became too powerful in the last buff, a bit powerful on her own but overpowered in conjunction with Ana, and since this is a team game the synergy has to be taken into account.

Nonetheless with the PTR changes the developers aimed at making her, posted by Geoff Goodman :

...weaker vs. specific targets such as Reaper. She will be replaced by another tank in some situations, but she will also replace another tank in other situations.
Her matrix is still one of the best ways to shutdown certain ults, such as Soldier: 76, McCree or Roadhog. Not only that, but shes much better at protecting some friendly players' ults than someone like Reinhardt. For example, running matrix on top of a friendly ulting Genji, Junkrat tire, or Pharah is very strong and something that tanks with more static defenses (like Reinhardt or Winston) aren't as good at.


But nobody really denies that her DM redesign is excellent and is a great asset in the game. What the majority of D.Va players want to express is that the DM is just not enough if the character is so weak it can be countered by most others heroes effectively.

In another post the same designer mentions:
shes intended to be weaker vs faster firing weapons (and shotguns), such as Reaper and Tracer.

This means that in sum she will be effectively be countered by Reaper, Tracer, Bastion, Soldier76, and to some degree even Sombra (All faster firing weapons)Plus also weaker towards her current counters Zarya and Mei. Plus she will still have a hard time with Roadhog.

All that hard and soft counters without really been that powerful to counter anyone effectively or to provide defense consistently as to be a valuable asset like Reinhardt. Is the same problem that she had before, she has too many weaknesses that although does not make her useless it makes her useless in comparison to... so she will slowly be forgotten as a choice.

But even the examples you provides proves my point, Yes she could defend the ult of a friendly genji and a junkrat tire, but do this offset her innefectiveness during the rest of the game? Yes she can protect against a Phara, but so does Reinhardt albeit less effectively, so in the lineup Reinhardt will win the choice hands down as he is more effective for the team in other areas. Again if she indeed gets too week she will become not useless but just not useful enough.

And there lies what really worries me of the buff/nerf philosophy on D.Va. and to be honest the balancing of the game in itself. It seems to me that the balancing act to D.Va was a linear conclusion on her popularity and effectiveness in the current meta. And not taken into account that she is OP only as a result of the current meta, not the cause of it. So is not the D.Va nerf in itself what worries me. Is the fact that her nerf seems to point at a individual heavy approach to balancing characters rather than more holistic.
"D.Va needed a nerf" is the wrong philosophy. The right one is "D.Va and the tank meta as a whole needs a nerf". And the current hard nerf on D.Va points at a quick fix the stats solution rather than solve the underlying problem issue.

But enough platitudes and let's get to specifics. Where do I specifically see this "individual approach"? The more obvious example for me is Reinhardt. He is not as popular according to stats, which surprises me because I literally see it in 90% of the games. But after the Symetra changes and actually D.Va DM changes Reinhardt shield should have been nerfed! I understand the player who will content their function is different, but that is not the point. The point is that the developers included 2 more ways to defend a team but did not readjusted the first one to compensate for the extra shield.

I may be completely wrong, and if so great! I will be enjoying a better game in a few weeks. But if not, lets hope the developers really learn from this experience, and instead of big nerf to a character we get more subtle hollistic nerf or buff to balance the team.
Good post.

Honestly never really thought DVa was overpowered and I don't play her but maybe some kind of nerf was needed if she had become such a problem for people but don't get why Roadhog and Ana are getting off so light when everyone know they're the core of the tank meta.

Also agree with stats being weird cause rein is in every game I play. I mean he's so essential. I don't think he's broken cause he himself isn't amazing and is mainly good if the rest of the team use his shield and the DPS can hit.
"
This means that in sum she will be effectively be countered by Reaper, Tracer, Bastion, Soldier76, and to some degree even Sombra (All faster firing weapons)"

As much as i think 300/300 would be fine.

Bastion might be useful now.
D.Va was great at countering ults with the DM provided that the enemy team didn't realize that they had to deal with her. It's the equivalent of "We need to break the Rein shield before we ult."

There have been plenty of times where I've been baited out as D.Va so someone else could ult and I couldn't get to them. Or I get tossed one of the ults I can't deal with.

Not to mention that actually catching half the ults isn't exactly easy. I've gotten lucky before where Mei tries to throw it straight on the point to save the team with zero skill, but I have nearly 400 hours on D.Va and I can catch maybe one in ten Mei ults now that most of them realize I can do it.

It's like complaining that Bastion does so much damage. Once you know how to deal with Bastion, he's not difficult.

The problem is, unlike the actual players, the developers don't know how to play her (Junkrat tires as an example) or how to counter her. Nor are they interested in giving her actual counters beyond dealing with ultimates.

S4 champs will be Reinhardt, Roadhog, Zarya, Ana, Lucio, S76.
01/14/2017 06:43 AMPosted by XxProReapsxX
"
This means that in sum she will be effectively be countered by Reaper, Tracer, Bastion, Soldier76, and to some degree even Sombra (All faster firing weapons)"

As much as i think 300/300 would be fine.

Bastion might be useful now.


Bastion won't be used to counter a hero who won't be played.
Dva's nerf to me seems a bit off. If she is being nerfed because she is being played to often then soldier should be nerfed too because he is in every game. Is she being nerfed because of the tank meta? If so she's not the cause Ana is. Is she being nerfed because reaper and tracer don't do enough damage? I never had a problem but in that case maybe a buff for reaper is necessary especially since he cant really compete with soldier as is. If you are going to nerf her those are two big things to nerf the two things you gave her before. So are they just reverting her. I would think it better to be 300/300 and leave her damage as is.
I'm Just a bit confused.
Great post OP. It feels like the devs didn't just nerf her because of the tank meta, but also because she is a popular pick. The protecting Genji and Pharah thing what Geoff mentioned seems like a bad excuse. At this point I don't even know what D.VA can do more for the team in certain situations than the other tanks. When do I pick her now? When I just want to play her for fun?
01/14/2017 06:56 AMPosted by Andy
D.Va was great at countering ults with the DM provided that the enemy team didn't realize that they had to deal with her. It's the equivalent of "We need to break the Rein shield before we ult."

There have been plenty of times where I've been baited out as D.Va so someone else could ult and I couldn't get to them. Or I get tossed one of the ults I can't deal with.

Not to mention that actually catching half the ults isn't exactly easy. I've gotten lucky before where Mei tries to throw it straight on the point to save the team with zero skill, but I have nearly 400 hours on D.Va and I can catch maybe one in ten Mei ults now that most of them realize I can do it.

It's like complaining that Bastion does so much damage. Once you know how to deal with Bastion, he's not difficult.

The problem is, unlike the actual players, the developers don't know how to play her (Junkrat tires as an example) or how to counter her. Nor are they interested in giving her actual counters beyond dealing with ultimates.

S4 champs will be Reinhardt, Roadhog, Zarya, Ana, Lucio, S76.

I recall people mentioning her DM is blocked if a friendly is between you and the projectile, as well. Her m2 is not as functional as the devs or her haters claim it to be.
What gets to me is the inconsistency and sweeping-ness of it. They buffed her after S2 specifically to make her more survivable, and are now making her less survivable than she was in S2. Instead of just rolling back changes if they were too much, they're completely changing her playstyle (she can no longer fulfill the "aggressive initiator" role Geoff previously cited for her), and Geoff's comments that they're not giving her back her armor mean their mind is set on that without seeing how she performs on live, which clashes with Jeff Kaplan's statement that PTR was hardly played and the implication that it therefore wasn't the best way to be gauging balance changes.

I don't want characters' roles to be changing arbitrarily. It makes me feel like, "Why bother getting invested in this character if they can just change them at any time?"

But, yeah, she's clearly going live. My only hope at this point is that it ends like the summer lootbox thing where they eventually changed their minds despite initially digging in hard. If it takes a few months, I can wait. If she never gets her armor back... I'm not going to say I'm forsaking Overwatch forever, but I certainly won't play it as much as I otherwise would have because of the sour taste this all leaves, and I definitely won't be buying any lootboxes. I don't like feeling like the devs are jerking me around.
As I said, I'm more hoping they revert her damage nerf.

Her armor, well, she went from having more effective health than any other tank, to losing A LOT of that effective health, and STILL having more effective health over any other tank. I might have tried rolling her back to 400/100, where she was originally. But 200/400 is still better than every other tank has.,
The only thing that would really need to be nerfed on D.VA would be the range on her ultimate.

She does a lot of mid range damage for a tank class, so giving her 150+ feet insta-kill blast unless you're behind a wall is a bit too much.

It's part of the reason she gets POTG in about 3 out of every 4 matches I play. It's always her ultimate getting a quadruple kill because of the range it has (and a lot of areas on maps can be CQC)
I am not so sure as if the tank meta will survive as some people in the forums seem to be. With D.Va out of the equation soldier and bastion combined could destroy a tank comp quikly. Hence we may see 2.2.2 meta comming back or something. That's why i feel a nerf to D.Va and the tank meta was needed just expressed my concern about how they seem to single out one character. Detail explanation in my original post
01/14/2017 08:03 AMPosted by Oleptro
01/14/2017 06:56 AMPosted by Andy
D.Va was great at countering ults with the DM provided that the enemy team didn't realize that they had to deal with her. It's the equivalent of "We need to break the Rein shield before we ult."

There have been plenty of times where I've been baited out as D.Va so someone else could ult and I couldn't get to them. Or I get tossed one of the ults I can't deal with.

Not to mention that actually catching half the ults isn't exactly easy. I've gotten lucky before where Mei tries to throw it straight on the point to save the team with zero skill, but I have nearly 400 hours on D.Va and I can catch maybe one in ten Mei ults now that most of them realize I can do it.

It's like complaining that Bastion does so much damage. Once you know how to deal with Bastion, he's not difficult.

The problem is, unlike the actual players, the developers don't know how to play her (Junkrat tires as an example) or how to counter her. Nor are they interested in giving her actual counters beyond dealing with ultimates.

S4 champs will be Reinhardt, Roadhog, Zarya, Ana, Lucio, S76.

I recall people mentioning her DM is blocked if a friendly is between you and the projectile, as well. Her m2 is not as functional as the devs or her haters claim it to be.


I noticed sometimes that the blocking seems to completely fail. This might be why. Thank you.
01/14/2017 09:06 AMPosted by Andy
01/14/2017 08:03 AMPosted by Oleptro
...
I recall people mentioning her DM is blocked if a friendly is between you and the projectile, as well. Her m2 is not as functional as the devs or her haters claim it to be.


I noticed sometimes that the blocking seems to completely fail. This might be why. Thank you.

I have play D.Va countless hours and I don't think this is true. However there is a deadspot right in front of her.
I agree 100% it seems like people don't understand that the reason why she had so much armor was because her entire face of the mech is a critical hitbox. I think 300/300 would be a good way to test out a slightly less survivable DVA and that they should revert her damage nerf.
01/14/2017 06:43 AMPosted by XxProReapsxX
"
This means that in sum she will be effectively be countered by Reaper, Tracer, Bastion, Soldier76, and to some degree even Sombra (All faster firing weapons)"

As much as i think 300/300 would be fine.

Bastion might be useful now.
Bastion never did crap against D.Va she was always a good pick for cover while allies shoot at him.
Hog, torb/turret also do much better against PTR D.Va
I'll try to play 10 matches with D.VA on QP when the patch goes live and if I can't manege to play as a tank or even be useful I'm going to drop her sadly, she used to be my main for so long ever since the release but she still always had the same amount of armor throughout, with season 1 I planned out how I'd shoot out my ult without getting killed, going in with 2 people so I could be useful and help them out with kills

In season two It was great for me tbfh I had full control of D.VA she felt perfect for me and I could now play more aggressively during this time I was the most comfortable with her and played her on maps I knew I could land perfect ult's

In my opinion season three felt no different, even with the boost in hp I honestly didn't really feel different except I was a bit faster while shooting which was a great boost, I didn't know the tank meta was a thing until about 3 weeks ago when I experienced it

I see how you could blame D.VA for this but it was ana not her, even if you where to nerf her why couldn't you just revert her back to season 2 and add the speed boost, nobody would complain

but no the devs decided to absolutely change D.VA's durability and nerf her Dmg??? who complained about her damage??

The patch is !@#$ and I do not blame any D.VA main who drops her after the first week of the patch going live, you won't be able to play as you used to with this patch I guess D.VA will only be guarding tires and flying ninjas
It's truly sad that the devs have acted this way throughout this whole "event" and the community knows it isn't fair and isn't going to solve anything. I'm really hoping that they realize their mistake, and they aren't turning into your "average" developers where they ignore their fanbase and do what they want because they think that the ignorant fans and their existing success will be too great for them to fail.

I'm sad about D.Va, but i'm more sad and disappointed in how the devs have behaved because it shows that, if they aren't playing dumb, that there is a barrier of understanding that they aren't getting with their own game, and they are taking their players experience for granted. If D.Va is the first to get utterly screwed like this, what is to say that she won't be the last?

That is what scares me more than anything.
I've been saying this over and over too. The devs have no idea how the character is being played, and have a colossal fallacy in their reasoning behind this nerf. She needs to be nerfed, no doubt, just not THIS nerf.
Cry me a river. WINKYFACE T_T

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