PTR D.Va vs reverting her HP buff (with maths!)

General Discussion
In amoungst the heated discussions on here about the PTR nerf to D.Va a suggestion I see quite often is that instead of nerfing her armour, they should simply remove the extra 100HP they gave her in a recent patch claiming it was unnecessary in the first place. The thing is though, I don't think people have actually thought about the maths of it because it seems to me to be worse for D.Va. Let's first compare those two options with Tracer, someone whose damage is halved by armour:
Tracer does 6 damage per round or 3 against armour.

Number of rounds required to de-mech D.Va on PTR: 134 = (400/6) + (200/3)
Number of rounds required with people's suggested change: 150 = (100/6) + (400/3)

Tracer fires 40 rounds a second so she'll kill PTR D.Va 0.40 seconds faster.
So, people whose damage is halved will kill her a little bit faster on PTR than with 100 less HP however that's not even taking into account headshots and the difference would become less significant as armour can reduce one instance of damage by no more than 5 (and let's be real, you score a lot of headshots against D.Va).

Lets look at Soldier:
Soldier does 20 damage per round or 15 against armour without crits.

Number of rounds required to de-mech D.Va on PTR: 34 = (400/20) + (200/15)
Number of rounds required with people's suggested change: 32 = (100/20) + (400/15)

Soldier will kill D.va 0.22 seconds faster with people's suggested change than on PTR.
So you can see that for people with rapid fire weapons, the two options are fairly insignificant with the difference in time it takes to kill being less than half a second and which change is better for D.Va depends on the damage per round. However there are a lot of heroes in this game with large bursts of slow damage. I won't post the exact maths of these ones because it was largely just counting attacks and adding it up but you can look at it yourself if you don't believe me:
Reinhardt:

Number of attacks PTR: 9 (9 seconds)
Suggested change: 8 (8 seconds)

1 second worse with suggested change
Widow

Number of scoped crits PTR: 2 + 1 scoped but uncharged
Suggested change: 2

Atleast 0.5 seconds worse with suggested change due to Widow's shot recovery time
Pharah

Number of directs PTR: 6
Suggested change: 5

Approx 1 second worse with suggested change (she fires 1.1 round per second)
So in essence, on the PTR she would die marginally faster vs most fully automatic weapons but against people with large, slow forms of damage, you're often given an extra second for your rocket boosters or an Ana grenade to come off cooldown and in my eyes, that is far more significant.
People need to add healing into their equations.

Literally every attempt at using math to prove that the new health pool is superior are doing so in an isolated vacuum where a hero goes 100%-0% in one go, with no mitigation or healing entering the mix.

However, I did the numbers including healing (I used Mercy's mediocre 60 HPS so as to not dilute things with Ana's insane healing output) and the more healing you receive the better the old health becomes.

This is because with 400 armour and healing, you prolong the damage reduction effects of armour significantly. Especially if you can also use DM to mitigate damage when you're running low and buy time to heal up a bunch more armour.

This makes armour worth a lot more against standard weapons too, since in a vacuum you're mitigating like 10 damage from a Pharah with 200 armour. But you extend that armour pool with healing and you can approach like 30-50 damage reduction from a Pharah (Depending on how much you can heal and mitigate) with 200 armour.

Even more so is the effect against things that armour is actually strong against, like rapid fire weapons and shotguns.

It's also a reason why Ana's insane healing output magnifies live D.Va's survivability so much... Healing 200 HPS+ on her with Lucio helping really extends her armour a LOT and makes the armour worth so much more (It's also why removing her healing boost altogether would be an ideal change before tuning D.Va's health, because that alone would massively reduce her tankiness)
That's a really good point Taril and one I hadn't considered, don't really have much to say asides from well argued. Thanks for taking the time to think about it :)
they said they will give her 200 hp and remove 200 armor
200 armor = 400 hp cuz armor takes only 50% of the damage.

That means she is losing 200 of her current overall health.
No it doesn't. You didn't think about how much filled her health bar has to be to actually get damage reduction from the armor. If the armor was distributed evenly, your post would be accurate. With such a small amount at the tip of the health bar, it is very hard for dva to get her armor back after she is severely damaged, which means you will be spamming I need healing constantly to perform anywhere close to prebuff. Your healers are going to hate you and beg you to switch.
01/10/2017 06:31 AMPosted by Ziatco
they said they will give her 200 hp and remove 200 armor
200 armor = 400 hp cuz armor takes only 50% of the damage.

That means she is losing 200 of her current overall health.


Not quite correct, armour reduces one instance of damage by a maximum of 5, only shots which do 10 damage or less are halfed, anything over that is reduced by 5. Each of Tracers shots can do 6 damage so they're halfed to 3, if a Widowmaker crits for 300 damage it will stil do 295 to armour. So it halves weak shots and shotguns because each pellet only hits for a small amount.
01/10/2017 06:32 AMPosted by WorstPlayer
No it doesn't. You didn't think about how much filled her health bar has to be to actually get damage reduction from the armor. If the armor was distributed evenly, your post would be accurate. With such a small amount at the tip of the health bar, it is very hard for dva to get her armor back after she is severely damaged, which means you will be spamming I need healing constantly to perform anywhere close to prebuff. Your healers are going to hate you and beg you to switch.


I would argue that "such a small amount" is a bit of an exaggeration when we're talking about a third of her healthpool (the joint biggest healthpool at that) but I do get your point. And yeah, any healer but Ana would likely find that a bit too much to handle in the midst of combat and I don't like the idea of balancing around Ana's clearly busted heal rate so yeah, I can definitely see what you're saying.
I'd like to add which I keep saying. Fights with other close range damage dealers are the ones where she suffers for this change the most. So really people who she'd be likely to engage in combat with are ejecting her more easily. That's worth consideration in my opinion.
01/10/2017 06:31 AMPosted by Ziatco
they said they will give her 200 hp and remove 200 armor
200 armor = 400 hp cuz armor takes only 50% of the damage.

That means she is losing 200 of her current overall health.

Then that also means that she had 1000hp + 150hp from baby DVA .. and that was ok with you?
01/10/2017 07:14 AMPosted by Kwacker
So it halves weak shots and shotguns because each pellet only hits for a small amount.


Well... Until they crit.

Since critical modifiers are performed before damage reduction from armour so all weak shots sans D.Va shots will go over 10 damage on a crit.

For example, Tracer's shots dealing 6 damage will go up to 12 damage before armour then be reduced by 5 down to 7 (Rather than armour being first where it would be 6 damage reduced by 50% down to 3 then doubled to 6)
I really liked D.Va's old health (100 health, 400 armor) because it made her more unique. It made her the "armor-heavy" tank.

Bring her health back down to 100 health and 400 armor, then increase her pellets-per-shot up to 12~14 (with the PTR damage-per-pellet).
01/10/2017 07:40 AMPosted by Taril
01/10/2017 07:14 AMPosted by Kwacker
So it halves weak shots and shotguns because each pellet only hits for a small amount.


Well... Until they crit.

Since critical modifiers are performed before damage reduction from armour so all weak shots sans D.Va shots will go over 10 damage on a crit.

For example, Tracer's shots dealing 6 damage will go up to 12 damage before armour then be reduced by 5 down to 7 (Rather than armour being first where it would be 6 damage reduced by 50% down to 3 then doubled to 6)


Except D.Va, of course. She's the only one who can't ignore her armour.
The thing is D.va has close range weapons with significant damage drop at distance so she needs to get upclose and personal to do any real damage, and this when she will suffer the most from the lack of armor.
01/10/2017 08:06 AMPosted by RainehDaze
Except D.Va, of course. She's the only one who can't ignore her armour.


Yeah, the curse of Rapid Fire Shotguns is absurdly low DPH due to double dipping in "Things that deserve low DPH"

It's why D.Va duels on live can feel like they take literal years before someone is de-meched.
01/10/2017 08:19 AMPosted by Taril
01/10/2017 08:06 AMPosted by RainehDaze
Except D.Va, of course. She's the only one who can't ignore her armour.


Yeah, the curse of Rapid Fire Shotguns is absurdly low DPH due to double dipping in "Things that deserve low DPH"

It's why D.Va duels on live can feel like they take literal years before someone is de-meched.
it feels like mechwarrior against 2 assault classes. I love it.

On ptr however d.va can shred another d.va. feels really weird.
01/10/2017 08:21 AMPosted by Ceratisa
On ptr however d.va can shred another d.va. feels really weird.


Even Baby D.Va can shred a Mech D.Va ;_;
I really enjoy the maths, thank you. I know blizzard used reaper as their prime example of who they wanted dva to be weaker against. Roadhog will also fall in this category by default.

Do you have the math on those two heroes? Also, comparing live numbers vs ptr is most useful. Would you just reverse the numbers?

Vs76 on ptr: 400/20 +200/15 =34. Would Vs76 live be: 200/20 + 400/15 = 36?

Vs tracer ptr: 400/6 + 200/3= 134
Suggested 400 armor 100 health: 100/6+400/3= 150.
Vs. tracer live: 200/6 + 400/3= 163?
Wow that's a huge buff, huh?

I did a visual test vs Roadhog, and what I saw was:
In ptr with his hook combo, dva goes from 600 health to 150. Vs. Hog in live, dva goes from 600 to 300. 450(ptr) damage done up from 300(live). A 50% increase damage for Roadhog vs dva.. I am guessing reaper is similar.

Like I said this was not math just visual, but if that's close to accurate, I think that's why people that like to play dva are crying out some. .

And I understand the idea of wanting to reduce dva's damage reduction slightly, however from what I've noticed on ptr, besides her DM, she almost feels like winston's current health pool issue vs most dps - it gets shredded! There has to be a middle ground.

And it would be totally different if pilot dva form and dva meka form were actually interchangeable and a gameplay option made by the hero. It isn't, it's just a rare chance at staying alive and not respawning..
01/10/2017 06:32 AMPosted by WorstPlayer
No it doesn't. You didn't think about how much filled her health bar has to be to actually get damage reduction from the armor.

True thing.
Healers are strained more now to keep D.Va in the "armor zone" with her HP.
And she's still the biggest heal sink in the game. Now even more than before do you have to always keep half an eye on her.
01/10/2017 08:54 AMPosted by Shabazza
01/10/2017 06:32 AMPosted by WorstPlayer
No it doesn't. You didn't think about how much filled her health bar has to be to actually get damage reduction from the armor.

True thing.
Healers are strained more now to keep D.Va in the "armor zone" with her HP.
And she's still the biggest heal sink in the game. Now even more than before do you have to always keep half an eye on her.
yeah once she's at 66% health she's taking double damage all the time. Not really when you think "oh crap gotta get them back up noowww" but its the way it works now.
I like the small health pool, large armor pool because it is easier on healers, and gives them more value for their healing. Plain hp is the least effective type of healing since damage is not reduced. This means the large health pool, if anything, weakens a healers effectiveness healing dva, compared to the damage those heals will take. It's not an obvious thing, cause more hp seems like it would be better, but if a large hp pool gets in the way of armor regeneration, the problem becomes clear.
I think this is why she was given an extra 100 health in the first place, a clever nerf in disguise, but it backfired because the ratio wasn't in regular HP's favor for it to reveal itself. Either that, or Blizzard didn't even think about this...

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