I don't enjoy widowmaker in this game.

General Discussion
I don't enjoy playing against snipers.
I don't enjoy playing snipers.
I don't enjoy a game balanced around the presence of snipers.
I don't enjoy the steps required to survive in a game where a decent sniper is present.
I don't enjoy the extra effort required to compensate for a poor sniper on my team.
I don't enjoy the advantage of having a decent sniper on my team.
I don't enjoy watching play of the game recaps made by snipers
I don't enjoy being one shot from max range.
I don't enjoy being one shot at minimum range just as easily.

Right, if you're reading this I'm surprised you made it this far, I'd have thought by now the vein in your head would have burst in desperation to hit that little thumbs down, but since you're here;

Widowmaker has significant impact on the nature of the game and the balance of many characters within it; Genji for example has a lot of strength and a lot of tools to allow him to reach and defeat a widowmaker with comparative ease.
The issue is that this balance overflows into other aspects of the game, the same tools that allow a genji to rapidly deal with widowmaker also make him a nightmare for, say, McCree, a character who is already underwhelming.

In addition, the threat of powerful widowmakers has a considerable effect on the nature and flow of gameplay, players are encouraged to group up more, stay around walls and be less aggressive, which in turn leads to disproportionate usage and strength of characters like Reinhardt and Ana who benefit from less aggressive more "Deathballing" playstyles.

While I would not call widowmaker overpowered, strictly speaking, I feel like the game could potentially have far greater depth were she never added, or added in a form with less oppressive significance.
It's difficult to imagine such a major change to her design, and at this stage outright removing her is literally never going to happen, so all of this is nothing but musing and venting.

I would like to see a modern FPS one day that doesn't feature a sniper rifle or sniping character. Long range assault rifles, scopeless elephant guns, even McCree's pistol with reduced range falloff would all be more enjoyable and more easily balanced than true snipers like widowmaker.
I respect your opinion,but as a sniper I cannot agree with it.There are yet a ton of ways to avoid widow,she has just to shoot to let anyone know where she is.Her rifle is the only good thing she has,and even it can one shot only with an headshot,that is not the easyest thing to do.I could say the same thing about tanks,I don't like the idea of a class that doesn't die with one good shot and can protect their teammates.But I accept them,because someone loves that playstile,and everyone should be allowed to play with his own class.
I agree, I don't enjoy playing against or as a sniper character. She's rarely an issu eon regular games because WM can be countered easily, but on Mystery Heroes and No Limits, it's one of the most annoying heroes to play against because unless you get lucky or just change to counter her, you can't do anything since she's so far away.
01/22/2017 05:21 AMPosted by Xenton
even McCree's pistol with reduced range falloff would all be more enjoyable and more easily balanced than true snipers like widowmaker.

Except he had that during the majority of the beta and during a 1 month long buff he got after release. And it was a complete nightmare.
01/22/2017 05:33 AMPosted by Panicsort
01/22/2017 05:21 AMPosted by Xenton
even McCree's pistol with reduced range falloff would all be more enjoyable and more easily balanced than true snipers like widowmaker.

Except he had that during the majority of the beta and during a 1 month long buff he got after release. And it was a complete nightmare.

That is true, but there is a happy medium.

01/22/2017 05:27 AMPosted by Thunder
I respect your opinion,but as a sniper I cannot agree with it.There are yet a ton of ways to avoid widow,she has just to shoot to let anyone know where she is.Her rifle is the only good thing she has,and even it can one shot only with an headshot,that is not the easyest thing to do.I could say the same thing about tanks,I don't like the idea of a class that doesn't die with one good shot and can protect their teammates.But I accept them,because someone loves that playstile,and everyone should be allowed to play with his own class.


Why should all characters die in one shot?
That's been done a million times, there's many characters in this game (Healers, for example) who exist solely on the basis of characters being less fragile in overwatch than in other shooters (Like say, the call of duty franchise where people are made of particuarly soft 2 ply toilet paper).

Widowmaker's charge rate and headshot damage means any player even halfway competant with her can remove an opponent who's only mistake was stepping into view for a moment.

In games where sight lines are more limiting and alternate routes are more viable, this isn't such a problem, but overwatch is a game of open spaces, verticality and choke points; a good sniper can make all of those an utter nightmare for everyone else and that's not fun.
01/22/2017 05:21 AMPosted by Xenton
I don't enjoy playing against snipers.
I don't enjoy playing snipers.
I don't enjoy a game balanced around the presence of snipers.
I don't enjoy the steps required to survive in a game where a decent sniper is present.
I don't enjoy the extra effort required to compensate for a poor sniper on my team.
I don't enjoy the advantage of having a decent sniper on my team.
I don't enjoy watching play of the game recaps made by snipers
I don't enjoy being one shot from max range.
I don't enjoy being one shot at minimum range just as easily.

Well, you certainly nailed it.
I think you overexstimate snipers.A good sniper will hit more shots,sure,but the only shots that actually kill heroes are headshots.That,like I said,are the hardest thing to do in the game.If you get hit by a body shot,get cover,stay behind your rein,get healed and fight back.OW maps aren't the bf ones,when a sniper can sit at 1 km back being pretty much untouchable.Every flanker can reach and kill widow in no time.If her team protects her,you have to fight her with another widow.If she's constantly hitting headshots,she deserves to win.I don't get why the game can't have a playstile focussed only on your aim,that rewards you for pulling out the hardest shots possible.If you talk about making choke points a nightmare,I think you should take a look at what rein does.And only pressing one key.
01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
I think you overexstimate snipers.

I think you misunderstand. Strong or weak, snipers just suck to play with or against is what OP says. (If they are weak, they suck to play, and play with, if they are strong, they get universal hate)

01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
you have to fight her with another widow

If that was actually the case that would be a game balance issue. A characters best counter being itself is a no-no.

01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
I don't get why the game can't have a playstile focussed only on your aim

As much as I enjoy winning because of my aim (McCree main here) I think the adage "all aim no brain" applies. This game is so much more than an aiming contest.
You forgot something in your post

"Tl;dr I ran into a decent widow and I'm butthurt"
sadly we will never have game without some sort of sniper weapons/sniper characters because then all the weeaboos who are to frightend to die ingame cant pump their chest when they get the best K/D (while not contributing to the games main mechanic like capping checkpoint etc.)

But hey! Gold Medal in kills!
TL;DR but get the impression you want to run in blind and shoot things without consideration for what's going on around you, and have time to react when you do get shot at?

Is it something like that?
01/22/2017 05:49 AMPosted by Quilt
01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
I think you overexstimate snipers.

I think you misunderstand. Strong or weak, snipers just suck to play with or against is what OP says. (If they are weak, they suck to play, and play with, if they are strong, they get universal hate)

01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
you have to fight her with another widow

If that was actually the case that would be a game balance issue. A characters best counter being itself is a no-no.

01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
I don't get why the game can't have a playstile focussed only on your aim

As much as I enjoy winning because of my aim (McCree main here) I think the adage "all aim no brain" applies. This game is so much more than an aiming contest.

1)That can really be said for any hero.If your rein is bad and charge alone all the time,I doubt that your team will be happy.And if he's good,I don't think that the enemy will be happy.
2)The case I was explained was the rare occasion when a team cover widow/she manage to kill the flanker that tryes to kill her.If a flank fail,you have to beat her with another ranged hero.
3)True,this game is an example of how many skillset you can have in a competitive setting.Some people come from mobas,so they are good at tactics and management,others come from FPS,so they focus on their aim.There is no right choice between the two.If you want to play tactically,you can play a tank/healer.If you want your aim to be the most important thing to improve,then Mccree,hanzo,widow are the way to go. And it's wrong to delete a particular playstile because many don't enjoy it.
Obviously.

So don't play a game with snipers in it if you hate them so much.

They're not going to just remove sniping from the game entirely. Too many people are willing to play a game with snipers in it for that to happen.
01/22/2017 05:43 AMPosted by Thunder
you have to fight her with another widow

If that was actually the case that would be a game balance issue. A characters best counter being itself is a no-no.


Actually... that's how snipers work in real life. The best anti-sniper tools any military has, are its own snipers.

Also, the primary purpose of tanks for the past many decades has been to take out enemy tanks. They tried the "have machine guns but no tanks" thing in WW1, but it didn't work out for anyone, so they literally invented tanks to deal with the problems caused by not having tanks.
When I see a (good) sniper, I immediately switch to Winston or Dva and just hunt them down until they switch characters. It's fun if you just counter them.
I think you overexstimate snipers.A good sniper will hit more shots,sure,but the only shots that actually kill heroes are headshots.That,like I said,are the hardest thing to do in the game.If you get hit by a body shot,get cover,stay behind your rain,get healed and fight back.OW maps aren't the bf ones,when a sniper can sit at 1 km back being pretty much untouchable.Every flanker can reach and kill widow in no time.If her team protects her,you have to fight her with another widow.If she's constantly hitting headshots,she deserves to win.I don't get why the game can't have a playstile focussed only on your aim,that rewards you for pulling out the hardest shots possible.If you talk about making choke points a nightmare,I think you should take a look at what rein does.And only pressing one key.

Responses in order of comments made;

Headshot boxes in overwatch are some of the most generous in video games. While headshots take some skill, it's not nearly as difficult as other games.

Following from this, you mention battle field sniping, which features huge bullet curve and projectile time, both of which take a great deal of skill to master, relative to the hitscans and planet sized hitboxes of overwatch.

Many flankers can't reach widowmaker, as she has the capacity to ascend walls rapidly, Tracer cannot do this at all, and Reaper is both slow, noisy and well telegraphed if he attempts to do so.
So, realistically, only one flanker can "easily reach" widowmaker, and so what?
That's one character capable of dealing with widowmaker, and requires him ignoring the rest of the enemy to do so, while widowmaker can simply hook her way back to her team and garner their support to deal with him.

Why does a widowmaker who only scores headshots deserve a win more than, say, a D.Va who only scores headshots?
Both have to aim, but D.va also has to deal with positioning, health, Multiple enemies, cooldowns and protecting her own team.

Following from that;
A character "Focused only on aim" should always underperform relative to characters who must focus on aim as well as a number of other factors; Positioning, Cooldowns, Health, Knockback, Healing, Allies, Enemy positions, Listening to footsteps, Resource management, defensive abilities and so on.

Reinhardt's strength is part of the problem addressed in the OP;
Because of the presence of Widowmaker and her ilk, characters like reinhardt have to be strong, without them the slow trudge through choke points becomes impossible as healers are picked off one by one.

Overwatch was balanced around chunkier characters fighting tooth and nail for choke points, not for quick kills and AK:47's two shooting people in the ankle.
Widowmaker doesn't fit and many of the characters the community sees as poorly balanced are that way as a direct result of Widowmaker's influence.
01/22/2017 05:52 AMPosted by Yrch
sadly we will never have game without some sort of sniper weapons/sniper characters because then all the weeaboos who are to frightend to die ingame cant pump their chest when they get the best K/D (while not contributing to the games main mechanic like capping checkpoint etc.)

But hey! Gold Medal in kills!

That's exactly why I started to love snipers.I've never seen no one in any game,cod,bf,ow, that realize that the objective can be capped way more easily if the enemyes are dead.And no,I'm not going in first,I don't trust you to cover my back.But keep hating, it's a good thing for have an high morale when sniping.
...
If that was actually the case that would be a game balance issue. A characters best counter being itself is a no-no.


Actually... that's how snipers work in real-life. The best anti-sniper tools any military has, are its own snipers.

Also, the primary purpose of tanks for the past many decades has been to take out enemy tanks. They tried the "have machine guns but no tanks" thing in WW1, but it didn't work out for anyone, so they literally invented tanks to deal with the problems caused by not having tanks.


How things work in real life and how games should be balanced are so completely different it's barely worth mentioning.

Also, keep in mind in warfare snipers were also countered with decoys, Trenches, flares, strafing runs, mortars and getting on a boat and going somewhere else.

Those aren't options in overwatch, sadly.
01/22/2017 05:59 AMPosted by Pouncey
[quote]Actually... that's how snipers work in real life. The best anti-sniper tools any military has, are its own snipers.

Also, the primary purpose of tanks for the past many decades has been to take out enemy tanks. They tried the "have machine guns but no tanks" thing in WW1, but it didn't work out for anyone, so they literally invented tanks to deal with the problems caused by not having tanks.


why are you trying to be realistic in a game with a talking gorilla scientist? in a game about balance and pvp, a character's best counter should not be someone else using the same character.
01/22/2017 05:51 AMPosted by Spacechapman
You forgot something in your post

"Tl;dr I ran into a decent widow and I'm butthurt"


Actually "TL;DR I am sick of watching widowmaker streams with people acting like the player is great at overwatch when really they're just decent at playing a point and click adventure."

But I didn't think that really had a nice zing to it, it felt chunky.

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