Jesse McCree: That's how the West was Lost

General Discussion
McCree is close to balanced, his kit still has very minor flaws; yet, they are critical when you combine them on top of the other piles of flaws that were left on the path to his "fixes". McCree had these issues when 76 was at his weakest, since last year, except only people with high playtime on him noticed them at all. When attempting to bring these issues up civilly (and with evidence), we were called out as complainers which was never the case; we just saw it way before everyone else did.
The reason it is so much more evident now is because the entire roster has evolved; Overwatch has evolved, but McCree is among those that have not evolved with it.
He is currently in a similar spot that D.Va was in early Season 2. He is good, but just not good enough. There are plenty of issues, glitches, and contradictions with his kit in general.

Flashbang (FB)
  • Currently does not stop momentum and can be easily countered by jumping.
  • Stun timer starts ticking at moment of impact instead of when the target lands.
  • FB is thrown from McCree's center mass and not from his arm, therefore creating visual confusion when his FB is thrown at a target and it goes through them.
  • The blast effect of the FB is more strict than other explosives like Pharah's rockets and Soldier 76's helix rocket. This creates issues where a flash goes off next to a target but because a tiny piece of a rock or corner was in the way, the target remained unaffected when compared to Pharah's rocket or Soldier 76's helix rocket, the target would still be hit.
  • Cool down timer is much longer than other more lethal and effective abilities in the game (Roadhog's Hook).


Fan the Hammer (FtH)
  • Bullet locations are generated via RNG within the area of the reticle circle. This causes for unreliable shots being fired even at point blank range. There are instances where RNG will generate the bullets being fired to be perfectly around the target.
  • Bullet spread is too wide for the damage being produced.


Deadeye (Ultimate)
  • The shots fired from this ultimate are actually projectiles and are not hit scan.
  • There is a delay when pressing the primary fire button to trigger the ultimate and the shots actually firing from the gun.
  • There is also a delay from when the shots impact the enemy to when they actually register.
  • The ultimate is actually statistically the worst offensive ultimate in the game.
  • Movement speed is the slowest in the game.
  • Ultimate immediately goes to 0% when initiated instead of ticking down like Soldier 76, Pharah, Reaper, Genji, etc. Other characters are able to retain X% after death if they were killed mid-ultimate while McCree, no matter when he is killed, will be left with 0%.
  • Glows like a Christmas tree.


Combat Roll (CR/Roll)
  • Does not compliment the rest of his kit.
  • Compared to the other mobility abilities of the rest of the offense hero cast, this ability is sub-par and needs a rework.
  • Absurdly long cool down timer.
  • Rolling distance is too short.


There may be more issues that I have not touched on but these are the main ones I could think of off the top of my head. Please feel free to contribute any missing issues. Something needs to be done to address these issues. Below are suggestions for each part of his kit. The suggestions are meant to be tweaks to help improve McCree's consistency and help bring him up to par with the rest of the heroes. *PLEASE NOTE THAT I DO NOT WANT OR EXPECT ALL OF THESE CHANGES TO GO IN EFFECT AT THE SAME TIME OR TOGETHER*:

Flashbang (FB)
  • Now stops momentum similar to Roadhog's Hook.
  • Stun timer starts ticking when the target lands.
  • FB is thrown from McCree's arm, therefore removing visual confusion.
  • The blast effect of the FB is now similar to Pharah's rockets and Soldier 76's helix rocket but still remains with a 2m radius.
  • Cool down timer is reduced from 10 seconds to 8 seconds.


Fan the Hammer (FtH)
  • Bullet locations have a set variation of patterns that are chosen based on RNG. This is to avoid bullet groupings that do not make sense.
  • Bullet spread is slightly reduced to improve consistency.


Deadeye (Ultimate)
  • The ultimate itself now fires in the exact same manner as the primary fire (hit scan). When the primary fire button is pressed, a white flash appears on the user's screen and rapid gun fire is heard. The clip is emptied, and all targets on the screen who are able to be hit, have been hit.
  • Movement speed is boosted by 15% (still slower than standard movement speed of course).
  • Full body glow is now replaced with a glowing red eye. The glow is strong and obvious, but not as ridiculous as his original glow.
  • Ultimate timer ticks down in a similar rate to Soldier 76, Pharah, Reaper, Genji, etc. Therefore, when killed early in the ultimate, an appropriate percentage of the ultimate is still retained instead of 0% no matter what.


Combat Roll (CR/Roll)
  • Range increased from 6m to 7m.
  • Cool down reduced from 8 seconds to 6 seconds.
I'm against flashbang changes mainly because I don't want more stun2win heroes in this game.

He's already got godly M1 clicks, no reason to turn him into mini roadhog as well.
You'd be fortunate if anyone read this, let alone the devs. This is the creative thought that goes ignored; the application that we've tried to show many times over and yet somehow it still isn't good enough.

But I have read through it, and man - they are some fantastic recommendations.

Still stands; McCree needs help.

This intellect demonstrated over many times (with a lot of support):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753247929?page=3#post-47
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749375695?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753207560#post-2
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749848149?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749697672#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748965261#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749767453#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753268347#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753338099#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753287963#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753258682#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749696734#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748994938#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748636335#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748826129#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753166588#post-1

And this list does no justice to the sheer amount of posts made from July 2016 to now concerning McCree's status within Overwatch.
I wonder if, similarly to Roadhog's rework, McCree could be made less reliant on his main ability (left click in his case). What would you say to buffing/fixing every one of his abilities while decreasing his leftclick damage to, say, 60 or 65?
Please Blizzard rework McCree
He deserves to get more kills than Zenyatta
02/23/2017 09:13 AMPosted by Oizen
I'm against flashbang changes mainly because I don't want more stun2win heroes in this game.

He's already got godly M1 clicks, no reason to turn him into mini roadhog as well.

Did you not read the section addressing his issues? Just because he has a great M1 doesn't mean he should be left with issues in the rest of his kit.

That same logic could be applied to D.Va:
She's already got godly Defense Matrix, there's no reason to fix the rest of her to be on par with other heroes.

Let's have a lesson on stun abilities shall we:

McCree's FB
  • Duration: 0.7 seconds
  • Range: 5m, 2m radius
  • Damage: 25 (AoE)
  • Cool Down: 10 seconds


Roadhog's Hook
  • Duration: Dependent on distance
  • Range: 21m
  • Damage: 30
  • Cool Down: 6 seconds live, 8 seconds PTR


Ana's Sleep Dart
  • Duration: 5.5 second sleep time, ~1 second get up animation
  • Range: until it hits something
  • Damage: 5
  • Cool Down: 12 seconds


Reignhardt's Charge
  • Duration: Dependent on distance traveled
  • Range: 55m max
  • Damage: 50 from knock back, 300 if pinned
  • Cool Down: 10 seconds


Reignhardt's Earthshatter
  • Duration: 2.5 seconds
  • Range: 20m
  • Damage: 50 (AoE)
  • Cool Down: Based on ultimate charge


Mei's Endothermic Blaster
  • Duration: 1.5 seconds (2 seconds to actually freeze)
  • Range: 10m
  • Damage: 45 per second (about 90 minimum before freeze)
  • Cool Down: None, this is her primary fire. 2 seconds can be considered the cool down since that is the time needed to freeze.


Mei's Blizzard
  • Duration: 5 seconds ultimate duration, 3 seconds to freeze, 4 seconds for target to stay frozen after ultimate stops dealing damage
  • Range: 10m
  • Damage: 20 per second (about 60 minimum before freeze, 100 total damage)
  • Cool Down: Based on ultimate charge


Please explain how this is on Roadhog's level of BS? Not to mention, the FB itself is full of flaws and issues (please see post above for those issues) and has a longer cool down than the hook does on live and PTR.
The hook itself has superior mechanics and actually works for what it is intended for.
Ana has a similar ability in the form of a sleep dart. It may not have AoE like FB, but you can snipe with it. Not to mention, the sleep timer is 5.5 seconds of sleep that does not include the ~1 second animation to get up. To compensate the power of this ability, the cool down is 12 seconds long and the damage is only 5.

There was no stating to modify any of the stunning properties such as increase stun duration, blast radius, or distance that would increase the overall effectiveness of the FB. The solutions are to help reduce the flaws and inconsistencies so that it actually works. The stun cause by the FB isn't even a second long, yet all the other stun characters have longer stun times that can be much more infuriating than the FB.

But McCree? !@#$ that guy, give him a gun.
02/23/2017 09:28 AMPosted by Tapkomet
I wonder if, similarly to Roadhog's rework, McCree could be made less reliant on his main ability (left click in his case). What would you say to buffing/fixing every one of his abilities while decreasing his leftclick damage to, say, 60 or 65?


So if something is inherently flawed because of poor game design and could potentially fall under the category of a bug/glitch, the cost to fix these issues would be to reduce the character's only redeeming quality? This doesn't sound very logical at all. Not to mention, we have a character like Ana who is support, has a way better kit, and does 80 damage per shot with more shots in her clip.

McCree was already nerfed enough with his past 5 iterations. The only real "buff" he received was a minor increase to his maximum range. The other changes, regarding FtH and FB were only minute changes that helped but were more along the lines of a tweak not really a buff. A majority of the suggestions I posted with regards to fixing McCree are tweaks. There are a few in there that may be considered buffs like his cool down reductions; but as I stated McCree has issues and has had them since last year, these issues cannot be simply ignored at this point with so many threads consistently bringing it up since the summer.
They should add the same short, but strong slow effect on Hog's hook to the flashbang.

I don't really agree with your other flashbang changes or the visual change on Deadeye. Flashbang's CD feels fair to me at this point, because stun is very frustrating to go up against and I'd he not be throwing it around everywhere. You get one stun per and that feels fair to me.

Other than that, the change ideas are great!
02/23/2017 10:12 AMPosted by WackoJack
They should add the same short, but strong slow effect on Hog's hook to the flashbang.

I don't really agree with your other flashbang changes or the visual change on Deadeye. Flashbang's CD feels fair to me at this point, because stun is very frustrating to go up against and I'd he not be throwing it around everywhere. You get one stun per and that feels fair to me.

Other than that, the change ideas are great!

I'm not sure what you mean by the "slow effect" on Roadhog's hook, can you explain?

Is the FB cool down suggestion the only thing you aren't for? I am confused.
As for the visual change on Deadeye, it is only just to make him not sick out like a sore thumb but still noticeable enough to track down and kill. He shouldn't be lighting up an entire dark room but he should at least have some sort of glow to him.
02/23/2017 10:09 AMPosted by RagedShadow
02/23/2017 09:28 AMPosted by Tapkomet
I wonder if, similarly to Roadhog's rework, McCree could be made less reliant on his main ability (left click in his case). What would you say to buffing/fixing every one of his abilities while decreasing his leftclick damage to, say, 60 or 65?


So if something is inherently flawed because of poor game design and could potentially fall under the category of a bug/glitch, the cost to fix these issues would be to reduce the character's only redeeming quality? This doesn't sound very logical at all. Not to mention, we have a character like Ana who is support, has a way better kit, and does 80 damage per shot with more shots in her clip.

McCree was already nerfed enough with his past 5 iterations. The only real "buff" he received was a minor increase to his maximum range. The other changes, regarding FtH and FB were only minute changes that helped but were more along the lines of a tweak not really a buff. A majority of the suggestions I posted with regards to fixing McCree are tweaks. There are a few in there that may be considered buffs like his cool down reductions; but as I stated McCree has issues and has had them since last year, these issues cannot be simply ignored at this point with so many threads consistently bringing it up since the summer.


That's not quite my point. What I'm saying is, McCree's kit is bad with every single ability either very flawed or practically useless, but he still sees play because of left click.

Consequently, if you buffed his abilities a lot he'd go from "nearly viable but overshadowed by S76" to OP.

So what I'm saying is, perhaps it would be a good idea to make him more well-rounded. Give significant buffs to all the abilities:

Make Roll shorter CD and perhaps slightly longer.
Make Flashbang stop momentum, work reliably, stun from the moment the victim touches the ground, and maybe a slightly larger radius wouldn't hurt.
Make FtH tighter spread, or perhaps rework it so that first hit does like 70 damage, but each next hit with it deals 10 less, which would make it very effective against flankers but not a tankbusting ability.
Make Deadeye actually a good offensive ult.

In exchange, make his leftclick a bit weaker.

Does this not sound reasonable?
02/23/2017 10:30 AMPosted by RagedShadow
02/23/2017 10:12 AMPosted by WackoJack
They should add the same short, but strong slow effect on Hog's hook to the flashbang.

I don't really agree with your other flashbang changes or the visual change on Deadeye. Flashbang's CD feels fair to me at this point, because stun is very frustrating to go up against and I'd he not be throwing it around everywhere. You get one stun per and that feels fair to me.

Other than that, the change ideas are great!

I'm not sure what you mean by the "slow effect" on Roadhog's hook, can you explain?

Is the FB cool down suggestion the only thing you aren't for? I am confused.
As for the visual change on Deadeye, it is only just to make him not sick out like a sore thumb but still noticeable enough to track down and kill. He shouldn't be lighting up an entire dark room but he should at least have some sort of glow to him.

Roadhog's hook reduces the momentum of the target after they've been hooked. When hook 2.0 was launched, the hook did not effect momentum, so people wer jumping near corners to exploit the new line of sight rule to avoid being pulled even when they got hooked. Sound familiar to the issues of a certain someone?
02/23/2017 02:24 PMPosted by Ramiel
02/23/2017 10:30 AMPosted by RagedShadow
...
I'm not sure what you mean by the "slow effect" on Roadhog's hook, can you explain?

Is the FB cool down suggestion the only thing you aren't for? I am confused.
As for the visual change on Deadeye, it is only just to make him not sick out like a sore thumb but still noticeable enough to track down and kill. He shouldn't be lighting up an entire dark room but he should at least have some sort of glow to him.

Roadhog's hook reduces the momentum of the target after they've been hooked. When hook 2.0 was launched, the hook did not effect momentum, so people wer jumping near corners to exploit the new line of sight rule to avoid being pulled even when they got hooked. Sound familiar to the issues of a certain someone?

The fact that it took a week to fix this issue on the hook but not the FB is just sad.
02/24/2017 09:37 AMPosted by RagedShadow
02/23/2017 02:24 PMPosted by Ramiel
...
Roadhog's hook reduces the momentum of the target after they've been hooked. When hook 2.0 was launched, the hook did not effect momentum, so people wer jumping near corners to exploit the new line of sight rule to avoid being pulled even when they got hooked. Sound familiar to the issues of a certain someone?

The fact that it took a week to fix this issue on the hook but not the FB is just sad.

The bias is astounding.
McCree has a lot more than just "minor flaws". He's pretty terrible all around at least from a design standpoint. Aside from his primary fire, he's got a bunch of garbage abilities.

He's a character that Blizzard seems to have no idea what they want to do with. At launch he was a tankbuster with his FtH, but they nerfed that ability into the ground. There's talk of him being an anti-flanker, yet his flashbang doesn't stop momentum, making it way worse at killing people than Roadhog's hook. I'll never really understand why they seem to hate his flashbang so much. The thing doesn't stop momentum, barely stuns people for half a second, and has a terrible range/accuracy. Comparing the thing to Roadhog's hook, which is basically a guaranteed kill from a much longer range, flashbang is terrible.

Right now, he 's basically a short-range sniper with unarguably the weakest kit in the game.
02/24/2017 09:56 AMPosted by TheFiend
McCree has a lot more than just "minor flaws". He's pretty terrible all around at least from a design standpoint. Aside from his primary fire, he's got a bunch of garbage abilities.

He's a character that Blizzard seems to have no idea what they want to do with. At launch he was a tankbuster with his FtH, but they nerfed that ability into the ground. There's talk of him being an anti-flanker, yet his flashbang doesn't stop momentum, making it way worse at killing people than Roadhog's hook. I'll never really understand why they seem to hate his flashbang so much. The thing doesn't stop momentum, barely stuns people for half a second, and has a terrible range/accuracy. Comparing the thing to Roadhog's hook, which is basically a guaranteed kill from a much longer range, flashbang is terrible.

Right now, he 's basically a short-range sniper with unarguably the weakest kit in the game.

I'm glad that others see this and it isn't just us. Let's hope that Blizzard sees this and helps make improvements to him.
I agree with this thread. Would hope that a blue responds in some way
Bump... as I've said McCree deserves to be a better killer than a frigging support (my K/D ratio is MUCH better as Zenyatta than McCree) and I doubt it's because I'm better at Zen. McCree and Zen have pretty much the same crap mobility and positioning and similar firing styles but the difference is that Zenyatta dishes out crazy DPS.

What's McCree supposed to be again? An offense character that deals less damage than a support, but his kit doesn't compensate for it? Lol okay.
Truthfully the only thing I want is for him not to be slow af.
02/24/2017 09:56 AMPosted by TheFiend
McCree has a lot more than just "minor flaws". He's pretty terrible all around at least from a design standpoint. Aside from his primary fire, he's got a bunch of garbage abilities.

He's a character that Blizzard seems to have no idea what they want to do with. At launch he was a tankbuster with his FtH, but they nerfed that ability into the ground. There's talk of him being an anti-flanker, yet his flashbang doesn't stop momentum, making it way worse at killing people than Roadhog's hook. I'll never really understand why they seem to hate his flashbang so much. The thing doesn't stop momentum, barely stuns people for half a second, and has a terrible range/accuracy. Comparing the thing to Roadhog's hook, which is basically a guaranteed kill from a much longer range, flashbang is terrible.

Right now, he 's basically a short-range sniper with unarguably the weakest kit in the game.

Agreed, but please let's try to break the notion of him being a sniper. He never was and he never will be; his players just know how to use him.
#fixhercowboy

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