Is another Reinhardt really the answer?

General Discussion
I really wonder if adding another character that performs Reinhardt's role will fix the issue his existence creates. What's to stop teams from simply running Reinhardt and MainTank2(Anchora) to completely dominate chokes with barrier stacking?

I honestly feel that unless something is done to Reinhardt's shield or most maps get slightly redesigned the problem won't go away but only get worse. However, that's just my opinion. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

Thus my question becomes:
Would another main tank just create more problems with barriers in chokes or would simply reducing Reinhardt's pickrate by having more options do the trick?
I'm not sure how it would play out, so let's see how things work and go from there.
That's what I've been saying, but any hint of suggesting a Reinhardt nerf seems to be a taboo.
02/22/2017 10:38 AMPosted by Balsty
I really wonder if adding another character that performs Reinhardt's role will fix the issue his existence creates. What's to stop teams from simply running Reinhardt and MainTank2(Anchora) to completely dominate chokes with barrier stacking?

I honestly feel that unless something is done to Reinhardt's shield or most maps get slightly redesigned the problem won't go away but only get worse. However, that's just my opinion. I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

Thus my question becomes:
Would another main tank just create more problems with barriers in chokes or would simply reducing Reinhardt's pickrate by having more options do the trick?


Somebody else filling his role definitely wouldn't fix the issue just make it less obvious. What we need are:

Characters that you don't want to play reinhardt against.
Maps that don't favor Reinhardts style too much.
payloads need to be able to block hammer down
Wait what? Sorry for being out of the loop here as I follow the forums less frequently but, what is the current issue with Rein? I hadn't really heard complaints apart from the fact that he was a must pick (is that the problem you are referring to?)
Not at all. It would just make both of them necessary and now we have an even harder time getting through choke points. This isn't a role that should ever exist in an FPS.
The thing is, we think the next tank would be a Reinhardt replacement; but what if he's a soft counter ?

Think Winston to genji, or Hitscan to pharah; a good genji or pharah can still do their job even when their counters are on the field, but it still keeps them in check

This is what rein needs, not a replacement, not hard counter, but someone to keep him in check but still can be outplayed by the better rein

And this is what I expect spidertank to be (or at least hoping)
tripple tank wil be back rein anchora and wiston
The Omnic Crisis was solved by throwing a whole bunch of Reinhardts at the omnics.

So to answer the thread title...
Yes.
02/22/2017 10:48 AMPosted by Sultan
The thing is, we think the next tank would be a Reinhardt replacement; but what if he's a soft counter ?

Think Winston to genji, or Hitscan to pharah; a good genji or pharah can still do their job even when their counters are on the field, but it still keeps them in check

This is what rein needs, not a replacement, not hard counter, but someone to keep him in check but still can be outplayed by the better rein

And this is what I expect spidertank to be (or at least hoping)


Unfortunately what you suggested already exists, and it happens to be Reinhardt himself. Due to his R/P/S abilities he is his own soft counter.

I think what he needs is more hard counters, something that would force him to switch off. At this point, Ana and Reinhardt seem to be the only characters without hard counters that can force a switch. I would include Lucio, but he is in fact hard countered by Sombra.
Sombra counters shields hard af. People are finally learning how to play her and I admit it with great shame as Reinhardt main, but in today's match I was countered pretty hard by one Sombra. Had no shield almost all the time, and Rein without a shield is a dead Rein.
02/22/2017 10:52 AMPosted by Balsty
02/22/2017 10:48 AMPosted by Sultan
The thing is, we think the next tank would be a Reinhardt replacement; but what if he's a soft counter ?

Think Winston to genji, or Hitscan to pharah; a good genji or pharah can still do their job even when their counters are on the field, but it still keeps them in check

This is what rein needs, not a replacement, not hard counter, but someone to keep him in check but still can be outplayed by the better rein

And this is what I expect spidertank to be (or at least hoping)


Unfortunately what you suggested already exists, and it happens to be Reinhardt himself. Due to his R/P/S abilities he is his own soft counter.

I think what he needs is more hard counters, something that would force him to switch off. At this point, Ana and Reinhardt seem to be the only characters without hard counters that can force a switch. I would include Lucio, but he is in fact hard countered by Sombra.


Because of rein's low skill cap, a hard counter will obliterate him, and that is something none of us wants

That's why I suggested a soft counter; which was supposed to be sombra's job, and indeed if you ask a rein main he'll tell you a good sombra is incredibly annoying to them, but sadly sombra isn't in a good spot right now to be a reliable crusader-checker

As I said, a good soft-counter that can still be outplayed is what he needs, not someone who will turn him into a scrap heap
02/22/2017 11:02 AMPosted by Sultan
Because of rein's low skill cap, a hard counter will obliterate him, and that is something none of us wants

That's why I suggested a soft counter; which was supposed to be sombra's job, and indeed if you ask a rein main he'll tell you a good sombra is incredibly annoying to them, but sadly sombra isn't in a good spot right now to be a reliable crusader-checker

As I said, a good soft-counter that can still be outplayed is what he needs, not someone who will turn him into a scrap heap


I have some issues with a couple of your points here.
1. Rein does not have such a low skill cap, at least not as low as you seem to think. He's actually well regarded as one of the hardest heroes to master due to how much patience is required from the player.

2. Sombra and Bastion are soft counters already. They can annoy him, make his life hell, but they can never really force him to switch. A good Sombra could hack his barrier repeatedly and he would still get his ultimate and wipe half the team without much trouble.

3. Back to your first point, are you sure none of us want a character that can shut Rein down so hard he becomes a liability on the team? I feel like this exact fear mentality is part of the problem and simply encourages reliance on Reinhardt.
02/22/2017 11:45 AMPosted by Balsty
I have some issues with a couple of your points here.
1. Rein does not have such a low skill cap, at least not as low as you seem to think. He's actually well regarded as one of the hardest heroes to master due to how much patience is required from the player.


let me rephrase that, he has a low mechanical skill cap; if you look at all the heroes that are capable of outplaying their counters, you'd notice that one way or another, they can outplay them on pure mechanical skill.

rein is limited in that regard

02/22/2017 11:45 AMPosted by Balsty
2. Sombra and Bastion are soft counters already. They can annoy him, make his life hell, but they can never really force him to switch. A good Sombra could hack his barrier repeatedly and he would still get his ultimate and wipe half the team without much trouble.


as I stated, sombra overall is not in a good spot right now, so we can't really say how effective she could be until they take her shackles away. and live bastion is... live bastion

02/22/2017 11:45 AMPosted by Balsty
3. Back to your first point, are you sure none of us want a character that can shut Rein down so hard he becomes a liability on the team? I feel like this exact fear mentality is part of the problem and simply encourages reliance on Reinhardt.


look at reaper, his counters shut him hard, so he becomes a liability, and so he became utterly useless. would you call that balanced ? would you be happy for any hero to be in that place ?
the game need's another tank like rein so he isn't the only choice anymore it get's very boring otherwise.
I really wonder if adding another character that performs Reinhardt's role will fix the issue his existence creates. What's to stop teams from simply running Reinhardt and MainTank2(Anchora) to completely dominate chokes with barrier stacking? [/b]


they just need to let the other team have x4 bastions :)
02/22/2017 10:48 AMPosted by Izzy
Not at all. It would just make both of them necessary and now we have an even harder time getting through choke points. This isn't a role that should ever exist in an FPS.


It can exist just fine if:

-Multiple members of the DPS Roster are capable of tearing up Reinhardt's shield on their own, meaning a team with 2 of them would make Reinhardt extremely undesirable until they switched. Bastion changes are a positive step in this direction.

-Anchora offers an alternate means of holding the choke that is similar enough to Reinhardt to ensure she is weak to the same thing and can't necessarily cover the gaps that Reinhardt has. Maybe she could even offer some advantage like she's superior on an offense team pushing while Rein is still ideal on a defense team when it comes to controlling chokes.

-The other alternative tanks retain enough value that a team of Anchora + Reinhardt would be at a severe disadvantage to their ability set, but this also requires the 3+ tank meta be undesirable too.

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