Would Wraith Form be too good if you could cancel out of it?

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02/22/2017 02:18 PMPosted by HUNTER62813
I almost wish Wraith was a quicker dash instead of a slow drift. All it does is allow the enemy to follow you and easily finish you off since you're basically still in their effective range no matter what. I love playing Reaper but I haven't been playing him much lately because he seems so slow compared to all the other heroes and is very predicable/easy to track


It's really to get to a health pack or orbs, you can't often escape.
you mean like Meis cryo-freeze? which no one thinks is broken or overpowered
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.
My favorite developer. I'm not a Jeffrey bandwagoner
I don't think cancelling into just anything would be necessary, but maybe cancelling into teleport only?
Phara's ult is not very damaging, you need the perfect situation to utilize it, like when Zarya has everyone in her black whole. But for itself? It's simply a death sentence and Phara is killing herself in most cases or she's using it in situations in only one or two enemies afar from the main action. It's a really bad designed ult, compared to a Soldier who is a walking aimbot, has his ult multiple times and can move freely. It's a safe ultimate with a huge impact. Phara's ult needs serious rework, at the moment it's better for Phara to not use it at all, since it's rarely beneficial.

I think Reaper should be able to cancel wraith, he should be able to use it more freely, so he can be a better tank fighter then he is now. None at all.
But he is already very weak, adding that will barely make a difference, it wouldnt break the game...
Highly Rated
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
(at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).


I've heard great things about peer to peer. /s
Highly Rated
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


Sure but doesn't reaper kinda suck right now? I can do a better job with 76. Ideally I'd rather have 76 get nerfed by 1 or 2 damage, but you guys won't do that. So we want a reaper buff.
Highly Rated
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.

Okay so what is Mei's drawback with the ice cube she can cancel out of at any time before it ends?
This just recently went around reddit a few days ago, so I'll copy/paste my thoughts from that post:

The comparison to Mei is a poor one. Mei can break out early, but gives up all mobility to do so (making her easy to surround/trap). Similarly, Reaper can move around with impunity, but gives up the unpredictability of the timing in exchange.

Giving Reaper toggleable invulnerability would be game-breakingly OP. See that Roadhog hook? Wraith toggle, pew pew, dead. McCree flashbang? Wraith toggle, pew pew, dead. Mei freezing you? Wraith toggle (wipes status), pew pew, dead. Hell, even things like Ana's grenade could be toggled away. This would literally allow any moderately skilled Reaper player to negate their counters by double-tapping shift at the right time.

Reaper's not even in a bad place now, just the majority of players have no idea how to play him properly. The vast majority of the skill is in delivering him so those shotguns can do work, and -- spoiler alert -- running up field in plain view is not how you deliver him. Teleporting just out of view, but still in ear shot of the enemy is not how you deliver him. Walking up behind your tanks... sometimes that works, but removes the element of surprise that lends itself so very well to that juicy 280-burst-damage potential.
Yes, skulking around is slow and may not work well with/against every comp -- but that's not a bad thing! We don't want heroes that are 100% effective 100% of the time. That's how we get !@#$ like mirror matches in tournaments.
02/22/2017 02:32 PMPosted by ValeriaLivia
Phara's ult is not very damaging, you need the perfect situation to utilize it, like when Zarya has everyone in her black whole. But for itself? It's simply a death sentence and Phara is killing herself in most cases or she's using it in situations in only one or two enemies afar from the main action. It's a really bad designed ult, compared to a Soldier who is a walking aimbot, has his ult multiple times and can move freely. It's a safe ultimate with a huge impact. Phara's ult needs serious rework, at the moment it's better for Phara to not use it at all, since it's rarely beneficial.

I think Reaper should be able to cancel wraith, he should be able to use it more freely, so he can be a better tank fighter then he is now. None at all.

pharah can deal almost 4000 damage during her ult.

Her ult is fine dont just use it whenever and actually wait for the set up
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


I actually like the way this explanation was given. Seemed pretty logical. I personally think Wraith is pretty decent. I wouldn't make it a toggle/cancelable it already feels pretty strong in a way. Personally I'd like the movement speed of it to be increased. Since it's primary use is escape when things go south. But it could allow him to chase enemy targets better as well. Not anything crazy...like maybe 10% speed increase. Might make it so enemies can't do a single movement ability option and easily make Wraith's speed boost null.

But Wraith isn't really what I truly think needs worked on, personally I'd look into his teleport. It being loud, and far too slow make it difficult to utilize if anyone has a decent pair of headphones.
If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again
why would you even have to add a delay to him being able to fire his guns again, he does dmg up close and if you see a wraith formed reaper people will in most cases run off or move away. and reading the forums about reaper a fair amount of people think he's in a bad state, I feel if you did give us the option to cancel the wraith form you'll just ruin it with that delay in being able to fire again. it's like fixing one issue and causing another.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


What about getting a reload when he Wraith similar to McCree.. i know you can reload before Wraith, but that extra second can make all the difference in a high level game.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


I think it would be a nice small buff for reaper, considering Mei can cancel her ability as well.

Edit: I realize Mei is immobile, but I still don't see that big of an issue with allowing Reaper to cancel his wrath ability.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


Would it be possible to internally test a version of Wraith Form that uses a resource meter similar to D.va and Bastion? I understand that having an invulnerability ability on a system like this presents issues due to latency, and I am by no means a Reaper player, but it's becoming clear that he is suffering a similar issue to Bastion. As the game ages and players become more skilled, predictable characters become weaker and weaker. Giving Reaper such a system could bring him back to a state that isn't much stronger than before while eliminating his second biggest weakness which is the need for him to use his only escape tool to close distance on certain characters.

That said, I'm glad to see a response on this topic. It's been quite heavily discussed here for at least a month now.
Sigh, poor Reaper.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Its not out of the question, but there is a benefit to having these sorts of 'all in' feeling abilities in the game at large. Other similar abilities are Roadhog's heal and Reinhardt's charge.

We could make these types of abilities cancelable, but part of what makes abilities interesting in Overwatch is how they often come with certain drawbacks, which enemies can then capitalize on.

Pharah's ult, for example, is one of the most damaging attacks in the game, but comes with the considerable drawback that she is somewhat of a sitting duck while using it. Using her ult well, then, becomes a matter of balancing dealing as much damage as possible to as many players as possible, with trying to make sure you aren't killed quickly after hitting the button. You'll see pro players hovering above a door way just before enemies stream through it. Unleashing her ultimate from that position allows it to target a large cluster of players while still giving herself decent cover.

For Reaper's case specifically, his Wraithform ability is very strong, but at least you know he can't attack you while he himself is unable to be attacked. Currently, you can try to time a shot to land just as it ends, if you're practiced enough. If he were able to cancel it freely there would probably have to be a decent delay before he were able to fire again, to give his enemies enough warning. Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

Again it isn't completely off the table for him but i'm trying to give you guys an idea as to why it is the way it is to begin with, and that removing these 'costs' that abilities have isn't always good for the game as a whole.


And that's a great point as to why some abilities have that all in feeling.

But Reaper's current problem is he struggles as an all in character. He has the damage, and he has mobility and an escape, but because his range is so limited he really can't do much without committing to an all in situation. At the very least, he's a waste of a DPS slot if he has to wait just to be useful without his ultimate when heroes like Soldier 76, the new Bastion and even McCree can offer a reliable damage source 100% of the time at greater ranges than reaper.

Reaper doesn't need to be good at range, but he needs a chance to create more ideal situations for himself and be more of a threat within his ideal range.
02/22/2017 02:29 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Otherwise on your screen he'd shoot you before you even saw the effect end (at least until someone invents 0 latency internet).

This is what I hate the most about Genji's Deflect.

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