Reclaiming the West: McCree's Purpose & Abilities

General Discussion
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Highly Rated
#MAKEMCCREEGREATAGAIN
Sister Thread: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753516877#1

Note: I cannot express my gratitude to those who have made positive contributions toward the support of McCree. My wish is for a balanced Overwatch; I hope for McCree (and heroes like D.Va, and Mercy) to be part of this. I will be going to Reddit soon (after the new content hype dies) to illustrate similar issues for McCree; although in a more refined manner. Thank you all so much.

I love Blizzard, I love Overwatch, and I absolutely adore McCree as a character; otherwise I wouldn't continue talking about his role within the game this much. I genuinely appreciate all of the efforts from developers, and whatnot. However, this seriously needs to stop going ignored; it is bordering on deliberate at this point - and it has felt as so for a while. All we want to know is whether or not you hear our concerns on this.

We aren't asking for immediate fixes, we've survived almost a year with absolutely no correspondence for McCree's status in-game, so I'm certain he could survive another meta being placed at the lowest point of the priority list again. We'll just adapt once more as we've done with all five of his changes, fair enough.

But at this point, all we want to know is whether or not our efforts, calculations (and "getting gud" cause obviously it was our aim) since July of 2016 have been completely disregarded or not?

UPDATE: MCCREE HAS A ~0% PICK RATE.
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-03-07-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-omnic-crisis-averted

There have been massive posts, with many accounts of great intellect demonstrated over many times (with a lot of support garnered):

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753160386#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753247929?page=3#post-47
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749375695?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753207560#post-2
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749848149?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749697672#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748965261#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749767453#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753268347#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753338099#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753287963#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753258682#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749696734#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748994938#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748636335#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20748826129#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753166588#post-1

We aren't just making this up. These numbers all come directly from the the Blizzard API. This list isn't reflective of posts that have been made recently, nor posts from last year; they are a very small collection of well supported posts that have detailed the primary concerns with McCree throughout the entirety of the lifespan of Overwatch. They focus on the massive damages taken from his most recent changes to the present, and how these changes have tarnished his intended role within Overwatch.

McCree's last change was on September 1st, 2016; an entirely unwelcomed change to the most underperforming Ult in the game: Deadeye.

Competitive Trend for Deadeye:
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree?mode=competitive

He has the weakest Offense Ult in terms of kills, clocking in at 3.21 overall versus Tracer, the second lowest at 4.08. It is NOT to state that McCree needs to have more Ult kills, or have ANYTHING over ANY offense hero - the issue here is the 0.86 difference. For a hero who has no sustainability like Tracer, no mobility like Tracer, no "healing" like Tracer - this is an absurdity.

Competitive Trend for Tracer:
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/tracer?mode=competitive

Compare this to Soldier 76. He has an insane 5.89 for PC competitive, versus McCree's sad 3.21. Soldier has a sprint ability, helix rockets, heal pool; and OVERALL better Ult and kit than McCree - he yields significantly better results than the poor cowboy overall. 76 Has effectively replaced McCree in every single way; to the degree that it is absolutely okay to not play a second support in some games - so as long as you have a 76.

So not only does he replace once-essential DPS roles; he can even do the job of a support. This is not balance. However, this is not the question of whether or not 76 needs a nerf; the ultimate goal and message here is - McCree should be brought up to par with everyone else.

Competitive Trend for Soldier 76:
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/soldier76?mode=competitive

McCree has tanked in popularity, especially in the pro scene - many players such as IDDQD have actually explained why he is not picked at a higher ELO anymore: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/5gx89y/iddqd_explains_why_mccree_is_no_longer_picked_at/

Is this what you call balance? Is McCree truly working within his intended role? Does he even have a role? Too many have ignored the cowboy for too long; I won't stand for it anymore - there needs to be a thorough examination of his kit.

Patch Notes (Deadeye Nerf, 9/1/2016):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749104703

Now I am not saying I want McCree to insta-gib people; that is not my intent - that only sets him up for further poorly executed nerfs and more changes I am afraid of exposing him to, considering how the other changes haven't really represented the place that he should be in. He has not been within his intended role and now he is barely valid anymore since 76 is a better option by far; nobody would know this more than the people who spend so much time playing him and the developers. So why ignore the problem? Again, this isn't a plea for content/immediate fixes or even attention; but I can say that it is insulting if we've shed light on this for months for it to only go unnoticed. Roadhog can only be accidentally "buffed" so many times before it starts to look like items are handled with massive bias. His hook held the same issue as flashbang, which was brought up months prior.

I appreciate the time from those who've stuck with us since last year in the attempts to help raise the awareness of McCree's flaws, as well as the people who are recent contributors; the developers, and the people who've read through this lengthy post.

Thanks!
02/15/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
<3
Highly Rated
Very well written and presented. Hopefully this issue can be addressed soon. This has gone on far too long.
I have a lot of playtime on Mccree, and I can say that he is totally viable right now.

If your headshot accuracy is 100% perfect at every range every time, you flashbang before people respond every time, and have perfected the roll.
Which is literally nobody.

Still not as good in that scenario as if you pick up Roadhog for the first time with 30% hook accuracy though.
I'm a D.va main, and I'm in full support for a McCree buff. After Soldier was buffed he feels very weak in comparison. But maybe that's because he's one of the few heroes I can usually solokill with ease even after the D.va nerf.
02/23/2017 10:56 AMPosted by Mugunghwa
I'm a D.va main, and I'm in full support for a McCree buff. After Soldier was buffed he feels very weak in comparison. But maybe that's because he's one of the few heroes I can usually solokill with ease even after the D.va nerf.

I'm in full support of the D.Va players, considering she is heading down the same route as McCree did although a different way.

I didn't want this to happen to other heroes - yet as forseen, it's happening to D.Va. A shame.
They just need to find the effective range that they're happy with for his damage falloff and he'll suddenly be a reasonable Pharah counter, instead of 20 bodyshots or something completely unrealistic...
02/23/2017 10:55 AMPosted by Lord
I have a lot of playtime on Mccree, and I can say that he is totally viable right now.

If your headshot accuracy is 100% perfect at every range every time, you flashbang before people respond every time, and have perfected the roll.
Which is literally nobody.

Still not as good in that scenario as if you pick up Roadhog for the first time with 30% hook accuracy though.

One day we may all strive to live our lives as Ambassador McGod.
His hook held the same issue as flashbang, which was brought up months prior.


Honestly, the fact that Roadhogs hook gets a fix after a week of feedback while McCrees flashbang has been broken for months is just insulting.
02/23/2017 11:03 AMPosted by Obamacare
His hook held the same issue as flashbang, which was brought up months prior.


Honestly, the fact that Roadhogs hook gets a fix after a week of feedback while McCrees flashbang has been broken for months is just insulting.

That is the primary issue I see.

I understand that there is a chain of command and priority with these things and some things are easier to fix and pay attention to than others at any given time; for one reason or another...

But again, even a post just acknowledging the issue would be nice. It's really a shame that Roadgod can just be this heavenly deity. He even looks like he has the Majoras Mask on in his yellow skins. Overwatch ported to Nintendo Switch confirmed through Roadhog buffs? More money making opportunities?

I don't know how to make sense of anything anymore.
I have recently started playing McCree, both to improve overall accuracy and I like revolvers. The flashbang issue is probably the most frustrating, as has been stated many times over many posts, it's inconsistancy causes major problems. I don't know how many times I've thrown a flashbang at someone, for it to just blowup behind them to no effect.

02/23/2017 11:01 AMPosted by Destian
They just need to find the effective range that they're happy with for his damage falloff and he'll suddenly be a reasonable Pharah counter, instead of 20 bodyshots or something completely unrealistic...


I would certainly like to see this implemented. Not in such a way as to make him a mobile sniper or anything though. However, it is a revolver(.357? not sure if this is covered in lore), it should be able to do more damage at Phara range.
The dilemma continues to remain that if McCree is not made into a much stronger close-range hero, then the see-saw between him and Soldier for medium/long range superiority will NEVER end.

It's not good design to have two similar heroes fill similar roles, so the close-range abilities need the help, not the medium/long range damage.

Improving his mobility isn't necessarily the answer either since Soldier mobility is good and you'd only be homogenizing their roles further that way.

______________________________________________________________________

Which brings us back to the same FB & FTH concerns;

Flashbang

    -- On a too long of a cooldown for such a short range short duration CC. It needs to either have a much shorter cooldown, larger radius, and/or longer duration. Some combination here can work, but requires delicate balance since all 3 could be OP.

    --- The momentum issue with FB is a problem, but if the duration and range improves it would stop being such a problem. If the duration does not increase then the momentum mechanics need to be adjusted similar to Roadhog's recent hook change that slowed momentum.


Fan The Hammer

    --- FTH was simply overnerfed. There's no debate anymore. It's use is far too situational, limiting it to being combined with FB and only really useful against ~4-5 heroes (Genji, Soldier, Reaper, Mei, Sombra). Against every other target using LMB headshots is either more effective or more economical.

    ---- Having 2 abilities combo to make 1 ability useful only when used against ~20% of targets is TOO MARGINAL.

    ---- It needs some of that damage back to be worth using against tanks again... it doesn't need ALL of that damage back, but it needs to be at least 10 damage higher (45 to 55 per shot).

    ---- FTH's reload nerf makes absolutely no sense now, in retrospect. Reverting this - at the very least - should happen even before any balance tweaks.
Upvote And a bump. This is very well written and I agree he totally has lost his gumption.

No hero deserves to be in the trash. Here's hoping McCree can get of the trash. Dva main support.
02/15/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Here... I made you this:

<3
02/15/2017 11:27 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
<3
Gizzard pls.
I hope they do address this issue at some point.
02/23/2017 01:36 PMPosted by Ramiel
I hope they do address this issue at some point.

If they go based on how they treated the Shaman class in WoW; it will be an unfortunate turnabout. Welp. I'll keep discussing it to death.
Almost time for the devs to wake up. Bump!
MCree is not bad, He just does the same job as 76 which is mid/long range hit scan dps .

The both fight for the same spot so who ever is slightly better will be meta and the other one won't.

76 lived in Mcree's shadow until until 76 got buffed. If 76 gots nerfed Mcree will go right back to where he was as the main source of mid/long range damage.
02/24/2017 08:33 AMPosted by LtLatency

The both fight for the same spot so who ever is slightly better will be meta and the other one won't.

They actually don't fight for the same spot because 76 beats McCree by a margin despite having a lower skill floor. Soldier 76 just does every single thing BETTER than most DPS heroes. He has effectively replaced most damage-dealing heroes; even rendering the once-balanced Reaper relatively obscure - whom was en route there anyway with the tanks evolving into the behemoths they have. You are misinformed.

76 has sustainability, mobility, self-heal, limitless dash, ROCKET JUMP, helix rockets, a better Ult, etc. over McCree; he is set up deliberately to be a win-more hero which is exactly why pro DPS players have left McCree for 76. McCree lacks every single thing that 76 does, and his left click simply isn't enough justification for him to be a pick anymore.

MCree is not bad, He just does the same job as 76.

McCree is suffering pretty bad, and this statement alone signals the fact that you didn't read the numbers I provided in the post.

If he did the same job as 76, they would have an equal pickrate and it would be based on whomever has higher favor in terms of character choice. This statement is all wrong and ill-informed.

If 76 gets nerfed Mcree will take his spot

Read the post again, this isn't a post asking for 76 to be nerfed; it is a post addressing the flaws within McCree's kit throughout the months and the damages caused by his endless nerfs.

Also, his name is spelled "McCree" - I insist that you at least spell the name of the character correctly before you provide your oh-so-well-informed suggestions. If you can't even get his name right, what convinces me that you can understand the complexities of his kit? You donut.

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