The "it's your fault you lose" fallacy

Competitive Discussion
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You can improve yourself, you can't improve your team mates. Focus on thing you can change/improve instead on things you can no control over.
02/27/2017 03:10 AMPosted by Tankz
02/26/2017 11:30 PMPosted by Unfortunate
The "logic" behind it is that if you only work to improve yourself to fix the problem that is you, than you will climb to where you should be. Which makes no sense considering it's a team game and to climb you need to win, and to win you need your team to at the very least perform better than the enemy team.


You're correct, instead of working on the only thing you can actively change (yourself) you should instead sit and complain like a little baby while you somehow keep losing because "my team is bad"

The "logic" behind it is actually that there's only one thing you can reliably see what does wrong and improve on - Yourself. Hence why when you lose, the only constant you could have effectively manipulated is yourself - hence why its your fault.

Which the improving yourself part is good. This is the thing I also tell everyone.

Here's a little thing about me. I have a fear of criticism. Due to it I notice the small little mistakes I make and beat myself up for it so I can fix it before someone else notices. I'm always working to improve myself. Which I can and do.

But this game quickly becomes who has the weakest link that breaks first. I can't change the fact that the rein on my team can't take his own advise to group up before we try pushing in. I can't change the 27% win rate genji that feeds the enemy team and never gets a kill. It is just a game of who has the better team, and it only takes one bad player to ruin it for the rest of us.
Had this mentality at the start of the season. Got over it and just played the game and stopped worrying about my team and rose 700SR
02/27/2017 03:29 AMPosted by Unfortunate

But this game quickly becomes who has the weakest link that breaks first. I can't change the fact that the rein on my team can't take his own advise to group up before we try pushing in. I can't change the 27% win rate genji that feeds the enemy team and never gets a kill. It is just a game of who has the better team, and it only takes one bad player to ruin it for the rest of us.


That is a very normal team mechanic. In the army, and many other places I guess, they will tell you that no team is better than their weakest link. Minimize that risk by grouping up with people you know.
02/27/2017 03:27 AMPosted by Kazark
You can improve yourself, you can't improve your team mates. Focus on thing you can change; improve instead on things you can no control over.
This statement is a non sequitor in the context of this discussion. Improve yourself sure, but the game doesn't accurately reflect improvement. I've played this game for about 100 hours and compared to when I first started, I have improved MASSIVELY but my rank is the same as when I first started, how does it even make sense? It doesn't I'll tell you what. It's because at my rank (gold) the matchmaking is a legit coin toss. Even though I've improved, I haven't improved enough to offset that randomness. So saying things like "focus on yourself" is true to an extent, it's also an excuse for a poorly designed MM system. As long as some people defend this instead of trying to figure out how to make it BETTER, then blizzard has no reason to change anything.
02/27/2017 03:35 AMPosted by Morpheus
02/27/2017 03:27 AMPosted by Kazark
You can improve yourself, you can't improve your team mates. Focus on thing you can change; improve instead on things you can no control over.
This statement is a non sequitor in the context of this discussion. Improve yourself sure, but the game doesn't accurately reflect improvement. I've played this game for about 100 hours and compared to when I first started, I have improved MASSIVELY but my rank is the same as when I first started, how does it even make sense? It doesn't I'll tell you what. It's because at my rank (gold) the matchmaking is a legit coin toss. Even though I've improved, I haven't improved enough to offset that randomness. So saying things like "focus on yourself" is true to an extent, it's also an excuse for a poorly designed MM system. As long as some people defend this instead of trying to figure out how to make it BETTER, then blizzard has no reason to change anything.


Anecdotal evidence, just like this: I improved two ranks while I myself improved in the roles I enjoy. Does that prove or disprove anything? Absolutely not.

If Blizzard makes no attempt to improve their systems, then this is on them, but I don't think that is or will be the case. They can not, however, make a system that is perfect for everyone, and these players are on their own. So what can you do? Well you better make damn sure you've tried your hardest to improve what you can.
If you're good, you'll rank up.
If you're bad you won't.

Everyone has leavers at some point. You could say this affects your true rank but this is only up to an extent.

It all boils down to how well you play and how well you deal with bad teammates.
Hmmm I remember a post that got heavily downvoted dealing with how by steadily improving your game your average win rate will improve and your SR will climb but to do all that you need a certain degree of certainty instead of the instant gratification of gaining rank every time you play. Of course nobody liked that, its much easier to blame the system and your team for not going up.
02/27/2017 02:19 AMPosted by Razor
Wait you performed better than the average person in YOUR rank and was top performer on YOUR team!!!


that's subjective at best and based off moving around the goal posts until one find some stat, play or whatever to point at in some way.

a huge chunk of the player base, mostly in the lower ranks, are STILL just flat out horrible at FPS games. The detachment of the player base from their skill set and this thinking that they are stuck with way worse players, no mater what the tier (being everyone does it on some level) is just bizarre.

Now I'm sure some players honestly are good team work players with meh FPS skills and they are stuck in a tier. That kind of sucks. Yet the player who are horrible but cry wolf all the time makes it hard to take anyone seriously.
Got placed ~2100 by playing heros I wasn't familiar with and performed very poorly with. In two days of playing comp widow before the season ended I went from 2186 -> 2627 (then played very poorly due to no motivation, not enough time to grind to diamond).

This is indeed a skill based system, and it will place you accordingly given the correct amount of time and consistency. Do your best, try to work with your team and always try to improve.

02/27/2017 03:29 AMPosted by Unfortunate

But this game quickly becomes who has the weakest link that breaks first. I can't change the fact that the rein on my team can't take his own advise to group up before we try pushing in. I can't change the 27% win rate genji that feeds the enemy team and never gets a kill. It is just a game of who has the better team, and it only takes one bad player to ruin it for the rest of us.


You will get bad teammates from time to time (varying on rank, of course) but by chance the other team will just as often as you. Time, improvement and consistency is the best way to counter this.
02/26/2017 11:24 PMPosted by Konidias
PlayerA: "I can't climb... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's your fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "I can't climb either... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's YOUR fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "But... PlayerA is on my team... didn't you just say it was their fault?"

Okay, so how can it be my fault for losing a match but also my teammate's fault for losing the same match...? It's one or the other. Unless you're saying we're all to blame... in which case, your argument doesn't make sense. You can't look at a match with your own preset notion of who the team is composed of. You can't say "all five of your teammates are good and you're the reason you lost" because then you have to say that same thing to any one of those people too.

It's a fallacy, and I'm honestly just tired of people throwing around this reasoning like it's cold hard truth. It's a team game, and any one person only makes up 1/6th of their team. It's totally illogical that it's always that same one person's fault for losing their matches... because there are 5 other people on the team who also lost the match... It has to be their fault sometimes as well... right?

A fallacy is you playing that ultra trash reaper and soldier of yours and thinking you belong higher
http://masteroverwatch.com/profile/pc/us/Konidias-11397
Just look at that, its disturbing. These are the lunatics that keep claiming they aren't bad and are not whats keeping them where they are.


02/27/2017 01:26 AMPosted by Lokthey
02/27/2017 12:43 AMPosted by Sallian
The logic is if you improve yourself eventually you will be significantly better than the rest of the players in the match and because if that you will win more games it won't happen overnight it's about patience.


But, if it comes down to the individual, then why SR gaining or losing depends on the performance of the team?

All this is full of contradictions of people just trying to justify Blizzard's terrible ranking system.

If one person can carry, then one shouldn't be able to make a team lose right?

This whole thing is so not logic that it hurts to even try to have a discussion about it.

Wake up, SR gain and loss is based off of your Hidden MMR which is the performance rating. Having both performance and win/loss work off of each other in this way makes a decently accurate self correcting system. It has some quirks but in your case its you who's terrible, not the system.

02/27/2017 02:02 AMPosted by Lokthey
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Your fallacy argument is inaccurate. Both question and answer to player A and B are both independent of each other and also the third question.

The third question is "whose fault is it that we lost THE match". Obviously the answer might be neither player A or player B or it might be both. Either way, it's irrelevant to the answers in the original questions.

The answer to "why I can't climb" can be true for both player a and b. If the question was "why we can't climb if player A always plays with player B" then the answer is that they are collectively not good enough.

You are taking the premise that not all games are winnable and therefore it is not possible to climb. While the premise is true, the conclusion is not. The correct conclusion should be: not all games are winnable, thus it is harder to climb.


But, but... according to the git gud guys, all games are winnable and you only lose because you are bad while not all games are winnable even if you are not bad, as the matchmaking will (try to) make it so.

Yeah its the alines conspiring against you while everyone else is climbing.

02/27/2017 03:19 AMPosted by Unfortunate
02/27/2017 01:56 AMPosted by ColostomyBag
In that case, if you think you're better than your rank, shouldn't you be better than the enemy team's players too? After all, they're in the same rank tier, playing in the same game with you right? If the enemy team was all superior to your own teammates, shouldn't they be at a higher rank? So it's fair that you should have better SR because your team is bad, but the enemy team that actually beat you (proving they are better), to be in that tier?

Imagine two pairs of cars, each connected end to end by a chain. The cars try driving away from each other until the chains break. The chains break at the weakest link. In this game the teams are each their own chain, and in 95% of the games I play it comes down to which team has the weakest link to bring them down.

In higher tiers of gameplay carrying the team just means being a bigger help to the team than the average player. In lower tiers of gameplay carrying the team means becoming the team. The difference is vast.

I have lost far too many games, not because the other team was filled with amazing players that deserved to be ranked higher, but we lost just because our team was the dumber team that couldn't do the simplest of tasks.

02/27/2017 01:56 AMPosted by ColostomyBag
Never seeing by what they mean that in the long run, if others are truly bad, they will drop or stagnate, and if you are truly better, you will climb.

I have a big problem with this. This is one reason I hate the system as it stands. My SR gained or lost is reliant on me winning or losing, which in turn is reliant on my team. Those bad players that fall get put on my team, and drag me down with them. First month of the season I climbed up to mid plat, held my own there for a couple weeks, then got stuck with trolls and bad teammates that dragged me down with the ship to low gold, almost silver. It took me up until the end of the season to get back to where I was.

Those bad players falling drag down others (it happens on both sides, either way still a problem), and throw of the rankings even more, just like good players carrying a bunch of bad players up in rank brings some bad players up.

The delusion continues. "my sr is reliant on my team". No, its not. Wake up/grow up or you'll stay in trash tier until you do.
02/27/2017 03:35 AMPosted by Morpheus
02/27/2017 03:27 AMPosted by Kazark
You can improve yourself, you can't improve your team mates. Focus on thing you can change; improve instead on things you can no control over.
This statement is a non sequitor in the context of this discussion. Improve yourself sure, but the game doesn't accurately reflect improvement. I've played this game for about 100 hours and compared to when I first started, I have improved MASSIVELY but my rank is the same as when I first started, how does it even make sense? It doesn't I'll tell you what. It's because at my rank (gold) the matchmaking is a legit coin toss. Even though I've improved, I haven't improved enough to offset that randomness. So saying things like "focus on yourself" is true to an extent, it's also an excuse for a poorly designed MM system. As long as some people defend this instead of trying to figure out how to make it BETTER, then blizzard has no reason to change anything.

I have a revelation for you: You didn't improve.
PlayerA: "I can't climb... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's your fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "I can't climb either... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's YOUR fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "But... PlayerA is on my team... didn't you just say it was their fault?"

...

[/quote]

Well, it is your fault and its pretty simple to explain looking at your profile.

I'll not break it down to hero stats or call the meta here, lets just use simple common sense and look at your picks.

Out of 112h you played 89h as Mei and Reaper plus 7h as Torbjorn. Ignoring the meta and checking statistics lets first talk about enemy team compositions.

You're in a Elo (low platinum) where they have many phara+mercy and triple if not quad dps compositions, reaper is kinda bad in this situation and mei is not gonna do much against a phara hitting you for 200+ dmg.

Moving now to maps we have tons of maps where you just should'nt play Mei like route66, gibraltar, lijiang, illios, 2 out of 3 nepal points, 1 point of eichenwald, 2 points of numbani, oasis, 2 out of 3 dorado points, hollywood second point ... Probably theres more but I can't recall right now lol

Now moving to reaper wich is one of the worst characters to be played without support, a reaper life is hard without a lucio that knows how to work his speed aura, sum that with the number of maps filled with high grounds ( numbani, hollywood, gibraltar ..... ), I mean, how are you supposed to take down a soldier on gibraltar with reaper?

So I didn't really look at your statuses but lets assume you're mechanically good in this game, still, you lack common sense on how to play the game properly.

You're stuck in low platinum because that is where people start to learn how to use the high ground and the most obvious counters...
In a single game it can definitely be a few people's fault that you lost or even your fault specifically.

However, your rank after playing many games (let's say, 100) is on you.
But i had gold damage........

Literally the worst thing to hear after a match :)
02/27/2017 05:59 AMPosted by keesie
But i had gold damage........

Literally the worst thing to hear after a match :)


I hate hearing this. This is nonsense. Gold damage doesnt mean you did a good job. Heck, good elims might not even mean you did a good job.

Those that are saying you need to focus on yourself and what you can do are correct. That is the only way to get better.

Stop being insulted by this. We could all stand to improve.

One time early this past season, i was playing my main, Lucio, in a match. And out teamate called out a flanking genji who was already LH. I spun around, speed boosted and killed him.

At this point, I was not happy with myself. I was relieved but annoyed. I should have heard him, I should have seen him. im lucio, thats on ME to notice. But thanks to the awareness of my teammate, i reacted and got it done. That kill was because of him.

Stop thinking everything good you do or good that happens is because of you doing good and everything bad that happens isnt your fault.

You will never get better that way.

Do the opposite. Youll be surpised how much you learn.
You're right that there are players complaining about their team mates who are completely wrong with their statements. I've for example had a Pharah in my team blaming me for a loss because I didn't heal her one time. In some cases this may prove right, however I was playing Lucio and as you all know Lucio can't burst heal. My amp it up was on cd, so I could only activate heal boost. So basically there was no way I could save the Pharah from the enemy Ana shooting at her.

I never blame anyone during the game because that might trigger people and make them play worse or throw. But as I recorded the match, I watched the same scene again to see what was going wrong. Then I noticed all of our pushs failed because our Ana didn't push with us but instead decided to stay in front of the choke point in Hollywood and snipe heal the whole time. So basically whenever our tanks went out of sight of our Ana, they died because she didn't bother following them. Now back to the Pharah: while the Pharah asked for healing and I switched healing boost on, the Ana could see our Pharah and that she was low but didn't heal her at all. So it was basically Ana's fault not mine.

Don't understand me wrong, if I do mistakes and I notice them, I fix or at least try to fix them next time. That's why I'm recording all my matches to watch them again and see what I did wrong. I never blame anyone who didn't make any noticable mistakes. Whenever I actually say it's my team mates fault, it wasn't all of them in most cases. I would only blame the ones who made huge mistakes like running in alone all game or totally wrong positioning.

I've had games where I made huge mistakes, died way too often, my team wasn't doing great either, yet we still somehow won. I've had games where I only made minor mistakes, but still lost. These kind of games are either stomps or close games. Usually when we get stomps, I notice many major mistakes of my team mates. It's not that I pay heed to what they're doing, but rather that I just happen to see them doing a huge mistake. For example an Ana standing too far at the front only to die a few seconds later. If I see sth like that I kindly ask the player to back up, but if they don't, there's nothing else I can do.

I've had many games where I felt like I couldn't have avoided the loss by myself. I'm mainly playing Lucio, so if the dps don't get any picks, there's nothing much I can do. I always end up with many elims when I play him but Lucio alone doesn't do enough damage to secure picks. On the other hand, if the primary healer doesn't do their job right similar to the Ana above, there's nothing much I can do either. I often end up with gold heals even though I'm using speed boost 50% of the time. I always switch to healing when needed and nearly only use amp it up for healing. I only use it for speed boost to speed through chokes or get my team away from sth like a D.Va or Mei ult.

The only time when I'm definitely sure I made a huge mistake is when I ulted at the wrong time or died completely unnecessary a few times in a game. But that doesn't really happen anymore. On the last day of season 3, I contested on Lijiang Tower Garden for a whole minute without the enemy team killing me. I even tried to damage them as much as possible but I couldn't focus anyone because my job there was simply to buy us time and contest as long as possible. The dps and tanks on the other hand couldn't secure a single kill in that time. I think they even had two pushes during that time and both failed.

There are probably people who advise me to play some other hero, but tbh I want to get higher with Lucio. I feel like I'm good enough with him to reach higher. What's ultimately holding me back though is my mmr. I won 18 out of 30 games (10 losses), but still only climbed 70 SR even though I got 8 more wins than losses. Nothing about that changed after 30 games. I still gained 18-20 SR and lost 25-27 for a loss.

I mean in the end I don't really care about a loss in competitive. But if even a 60% win rate doesn't get me higher but others simply climb out there by getting a lucky 6-7 game winstreak, something needs to change. I mean I got a 4 game win streak in these 30 games then lost one, then got a 3 game winstreak. That's basically the same as getting a 7 game winstreak and then losing one.

I know this thread isn't about streaks but about people complaining about team mates. But on the other hand, aren't most players who get on a streak just lucky with the teams they've got? I mean win streaks are currently the best way out of a rank and in most cases it takes really long until you get on a 5 game or longer winstreak. The reason it takes that long is simply because it's mainly based on luck which team you get and are matched against.

For me the only way out of high Gold/low Plat is a win streak if they don't do a hard reset. And that completely depends on my team mates. I don't even care about the enemy team anymore because nearly all enemy teams were beatable with one or two exceptions.

Don't misunderstand me though, I'm not saying I deserve a higher rank. I don't care about rank as a number, I just want to play competitive with equally skilled players. When I play competitive, it doesn't feel that way. I mean when I watch a Diamond player stream, a normal low Platinum player shouldn't be able to notice many mistakes. Yet, I do notice mistakes Lucio players are doing in Diamond that I'm already avoiding or didn't even do from the start.

A hard reset would be best. I know that won't fix too much. There will be other players who end up in similar situations. I just hope it hits players who deny that these types of players exist. I mean when there are players ranked too high, there are obviously players ranked too low as well. These kind of players will always exist, no matter what Blizzard changes. It will just hit other players after a hard reset and that's probably what some people are scared of. If they hard reset each season or every two seasons, it would be fair for everyone because at least noone is locked too high or too low that way.

TL;DR Some people who complain about their team mates are right, some are wrong. There are definitely players ranked too low though as there are also players ranked too high. As long as there's no hard reset, the same players may are locked there for too long. After a hard reset it will hit others, but it's sth that's impossible to avoid. If they hard reset each season, it won't always hit the same people. Maybe that's why some people don't want a hard reset.
The only time when I'm definitely sure I made a huge mistake


Heres the thing man, its good to notice big mistakes but the real improvement happens in noticing the little things you could do better.

Also lucio is a bit of a cat herder at lower ranks, so if you want to get out of there with him you need to call out enemy positioning. call out which direction the team is going to be sped through, call out the other healer to take.care of low health teammates. Its a lot of work. you cant just silently "do your job" and expect to climb with him. Being vocal comes with the territory especialy with lucio.
02/26/2017 11:24 PMPosted by Konidias
PlayerA: "I can't climb... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's your fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "I can't climb either... it's my teammates holding me back"

"It's YOUR fault. You aren't playing well enough to win"

PlayerB: "But... PlayerA is on my team... didn't you just say it was their fault?"

Okay, so how can it be my fault for losing a match but also my teammate's fault for losing the same match...? It's one or the other. Unless you're saying we're all to blame... in which case, your argument doesn't make sense. You can't look at a match with your own preset notion of who the team is composed of. You can't say "all five of your teammates are good and you're the reason you lost" because then you have to say that same thing to any one of those people too.

It's a fallacy, and I'm honestly just tired of people throwing around this reasoning like it's cold hard truth. It's a team game, and any one person only makes up 1/6th of their team. It's totally illogical that it's always that same one person's fault for losing their matches... because there are 5 other people on the team who also lost the match... It has to be their fault sometimes as well... right?


Player A match1: I can't climb it's my team's fault.
Player A match2: I can't climb it's my team's fault.
Player A match3: wow I carried this match.
Player A match4: I can't climb it's my team's fault.
Player A match5: I can't climb it's my team's fault.

^^ that's what's actually happening, you can't blame the team every match, and if it's because the tier you're playing in, remember that it's happening in the opposite team.
Thing is, I have a lot of buddies down in 1000-2000 range. This off-season I played a LOT with them. I noticed two very simple things;

If they went support; we rolled teams. I could easily, easily carry as widow getting 15-30 headshots a game and we would lose far less often. My 1500 friends could hang fine with us healing and tanking!

If I went support and they went DPS; we usually got rolled. They simply can't aim as well, and I stressed this to them heavily. It is an obvious DPS issue at low ranks, and nothing more. I keep encouraging anyone below Plat to take a second look at their sensitivity; you can't kill or rank up if you cant eliminate an enemy when you NEED to.
02/27/2017 05:29 AMPosted by Avallac
I have a revelation for you: You didn't improve.

You're so good at this game with all your tips... /sarc
Quick question. Why do you not play your quick play characters in comp?
You're clearly decent with mccree / widow but only Soldier.
Did you improve your winrate by only playing recently buffed characters?
(now looks at zarya)
Looks like Zarya requires some team mates to do good eh?

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