I Kinda Like The New Bastion

General Discussion
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You know what, with this Bastion stuff, I can actually play heroes I like to play instead of being forced into a tank role. I'm having more fun.

*EDIT*
What would I do to balance him better?
I'd allow him to be booped out of sentry form. (Concussion blast, lucio boop, winston ult, d.va boop, hog ult).

I don't think Iron clad is a bad idea, but maybe tone it down from 35% to 25% or 20%.
03/02/2017 07:16 AMPosted by symbspid
My complaint is that he can tank too many opposing ults on his own and come out unscathed. I don't mind being able to use skills to get out of a sticky situation like Reaper's wraith form or Rein shielding a Dva bomb, but Ironclad with his self-heal just tips the scales too far for too many ultimates. Any meta centered around one single character just isn't that fun.

My opinion is get rid of ironclad in sentry form, and leave all the other changes in place. He'd stay viable, but wouldn't be able to tank so many ults.


If they remove Ironclad, then they need to remove his spread and crit nerfs. Even so, removing Ironclad could destroy Bastion's viability. Play him in QP, he's not so strong if your team doesn't support you.
03/02/2017 07:16 AMPosted by symbspid
My complaint is that he can tank too many opposing ults on his own and come out unscathed. I don't mind being able to use skills to get out of a sticky situation like Reaper's wraith form or Rein shielding a Dva bomb, but Ironclad with his self-heal just tips the scales too far for too many ultimates. Any meta centered around one single character just isn't that fun.

My opinion is get rid of ironclad in sentry form, and leave all the other changes in place. He'd stay viable, but wouldn't be able to tank so many ults.
Then we're back to where we started. Bastion almost never being able to use sentry because bring made stationary is a death sentence. Ironclad will not be removed. People need to accept that. It will at best get a number tweak.
03/02/2017 07:22 AMPosted by Corpro
If they remove Ironclad, then they need to remove his spread and crit nerfs. Even so, removing Ironclad could destroy Bastion's viability. Play him in QP, he's not so strong if your team doesn't support you.


I can see that being the case. I really like all of the changes with the exception of ironclad though. I like the idea of being more mobile, and being able to heal while moving is huge. All of that is great. It's just with ironclad he has so much survivability, and while some compare it to Mei, Mei doesn't do that much damage that quickly.

All in all, I think they are so close, but it needs tweaked ever so slightly. I've just seen bastion tank too many pulse bombs, visors, and dragon blades.
03/02/2017 07:25 AMPosted by SinDoctorin
Then we're back to where we started. Bastion almost never being able to use sentry because bring made stationary is a death sentence. Ironclad will not be removed. People need to accept that. It will at best get a number tweak.


I think the mobility buffs make a bigger difference then most people realize. You just have to adapt the play style somewhat and not sit in the same corner all the time. To me, ironclad in tank form makes perfect sense. It's his ult, it should be powerful and able to absorb a lot of damage, but sentry form is a bit too much, but maybe number tweaks are all we really need?

I do admit that a lot of this comes from solo queuing. With a coordinated team, you will have much more success dislodging Bastion. In solo queue when only a couple of people are on mics? It's not so simple...
03/02/2017 07:19 AMPosted by CorruptGamer
Genji took out the healer who was pocketing me, did a good amount of damage forcing me out of my sentry form, I killed him but I was low and a Zen killed me.


This is a perfect example. It's not always straightforward, but forcing him out of sentry is the easiest way to win.

It's why Ironclad makes sense for me: he should be a pain if played well as a turret, and it should be a risk to move too much, especially in the midst of a heated fight. He is rewarded for consistently holding down a point, but the longer he stays in the same place, the more he becomes a massive target for the opposition.
I wouldnt say he has changed the triple tank, more like cemented it as a permanent fixture. Having Bastion has made Ana an absolute must still the sleep dart and grenade are paramount to breaking Bastion, Tanks are also necessary to tank him. Its triple tank and Bastion.

All we've done again is proven that players will find the easiest and cheapest way to win, ala everyone crutching on Pig for a while. A solo Bastion is only a bit more difficult to contend with but It takes a team to break the pocketed Bastion with Mercy and Reinhardt which leaves 3 enemies uncontested to pick you apart as you bombard Bastion. Thats the issue now, not Bastion himself, just this real stale defensive president play thats been adopted.
disagree, the bastion meta is super boring. Anytime gameplay revolves around babysitting a stationary character, thats boring, movement is fun not lack of movement.

less rein charges and hammer swings and more shield up all the time, less mercy flying around, less mobile dps heroes, more snipers who are away from the obj. More predictable outcomes on defense as well, less last minute point captures, etc.

The tank meta is way better than this. Also in game on team chat everyone is talking about this, whereas no one ever really complained about tank meta in game like this.
03/02/2017 08:04 AMPosted by JKY
The tank meta is way better than this.


Everyone playing only 6-7 heroes on both teams, with nobody being able to kill each other fast was "better" to you? At least the Bastion comp can be countered with many different ways. Against a tank comp you could only play tank comp or super aggressive Dive comp, everything else was plain useless.
03/02/2017 06:27 AMPosted by Corpro
While new Bastion might be OP, I'd prefer the Omnic crisis over the trip tank or Soldier meta. Season 4 has been alot more fun, because people are forced to cooperate if they want to win.

I agree with this.

I tried Bastion to see what all the fuss is about and don't consider him too OP. Even in Sentry mode when I have a pocket healer I can still get utterly melted by a good team, and Sentry is so inaccurate I hit maybe 1 in 50 bullets at a medium to long range.

People just need to learn how to counter heroes before slapping the OP label on them. I mean the patch has been live for 2 frigging days, can we let it settle a little bit first before whining?
03/02/2017 06:55 AMPosted by Udoroth
This is exactly like S1 all over again

Team built around bastion are very difficult to deal with and its all comming down to who has the "better bastion"

but you all dam well know Ironclad is broken

No non tank hero should be able to just face tank through a nano genji or tracerbomb

espically when the gameplay tooltip tells you to use pulse bomb to take out bastions

and all the anecdotal "counters" people are suggesting like sombra or RH hook assumes that the bastion has no team to support him
We're in season 4, so you should have mastered at least 4 characters.
At least with triple tank there was slight variation. Same damn comps with Bastion,Ana,Mercy,Rein,Soldier and Roadhog.
look while i agree bastion needed some tweaks (moving while healing, tiny chip damage not stopping the heal, faster switching between forms, no headshots in the stationary mode) i don't he needed the damage reduction passive. at least not as high as it is.

when you have a character that can survive ults they shouldn't be able to survive with 0 added help minus self healing and passive (like a full hanzo ult to the face, or full duration of nano boosted genji ult) you have some issues. add nano boost with his passive and he is actually impossible to kill, even with focus fire. which makes his ultimate even more of a headache. now he one/two shots non tanks AND you can't kill him.

which of course makes ana even more mandatory (whether to counter or pocket bastion) and nobody likes an ana dominated meta. she still needs to be reeled in some more.

good ideas, piss poor execution.
03/02/2017 07:06 AMPosted by LazyBird

No other hero in the entire game is required to remain totally stationary in order to make use of their most useful ability.


With buffs to switch speed bastion is much more mobile

and in recon mode his gun is as good as S76's now


Not anecdotal if they're true.

Bastion's issue is that he almost REQUIRES teamwork to eliminate. So in environments like Solo Queue, he may seem like a god. Turn on your mic and communicate, fighting the Omnic crisis is alot easier if you're communicating.


I like how you try and justify bastion by citing teamwork except on seagulls scrim stream vs Rouge they tried all the cited counters to no avail

If pros whom play the game at the highest level come out and call the hero op then you know you have an issue

The issue isnt bastions ironclad alone its how ridicilous it gets when a team buils around him just like S1 Genji meta

03/02/2017 07:14 AMPosted by CorruptGamer

No, it wasnt, old bastion bastion S1 sets meant Mercy Rein Bastion all back to back on a payload. A pulse bomb and they're down.



03/02/2017 07:07 AMPosted by pirzzzzzzz01


lol bastion was weak in season 1 as well. It's just that there were a lot more newbies back then.


I refering to the season 1 genji meta where people built teams around him and itcame down to who had "the better genji"
I don't like how he feels so squishy in his tank mode now. Does he even get iron clad in that mode?
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback here, everyone. We know Bastion is a big focus for everyone right now. I've been playing online games since they existed and now working on them for almost 15 years. One of the things I've learned about online communities is that change -- any change -- can cause a lot of anxiety. Back when I was working on World of Warcraft, I used to say that if we mailed 500 gold to every player, the community would find some way to be upset about it... because change is bad.

With that said, we'll make some changes to Bastion and put them up on the PTR this morning. We'd love to hear your feedback about those changes when they go up. I don't have details right now because we're still making the changes!

I think it is interesting to reflect upon the idea of what the meta is, what the meta is perceived to be and what the meta should be. When I read some feedback about what the meta should be, I get the sense that for some people that means every hero in Overwatch is picked at the exact same rate (so everyone has a 4-5% pick rate). I'm not sure this is entirely realistic, nor do I think the game is necessarily better if this is the case. It might be and I would love to be wrong about that. One of the reasons that we try to keep all 4 of our game modes viable (I know the community thinks of it as 3 game modes or maybe 3.5) is because different maps and different game modes allow the meta to be more fluid. The more the community pushes us to eliminate maps or modes, the more the hero meta will stagnate. I totally agree that when the meta is too defined (i.e. people only play XYZ heroes) the game is less fun. So we need to watch for trends and adjust as needed.

One interesting thing is the actual meta vs. the perceived meta. The perceived meta is largely driven off of the professional scene and what gets played in tournaments. After those tournaments, really cool reports are written analyzing the pro scene. Those reports go out of their way to say that they are solely reflective of the pro scene and not necessarily representative of the playerbase at large. Yet people cite the pro pick choices as gospel. One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.

So often, the perception of what the meta is does not match what the actual meta is.

Balance changes can be very difficult to make when emotions run so high in the community. There is outrage if a hero does not get played a lot (like with Bastion or Symmetra). We make changes to make those heroes more viable which means they will get played more. The result is, people need to adjust to playing against Symmetra and Bastion more... and they are more powerful. We cannot just magically make Bastion get picked more so the stats look pretty and not make changes to make him more viable at the same time.

I want to share my personal opinion on Bastion (which is dangerous because I know I am a spokesperson for the game). I play every night. I'm playing both Quick Play and Competitive (I played 2 games of CTF to get my loot box). Over the past few nights I've played with, as and against Bastion. My perception is that he is a little too powerful right now. In particular, in one match I was playing Bastion and the enemy Tracer was trying to hunt me down. The Tracer player was clearly a better player than I am -- a very skilled individual. I relied heavily on my self-heal and the Tracer could not finish me off. But I was able to kill Tracer in recon mode almost through attrition. This part felt wrong to me. But a lot of the feedback I read feels wildly blown out of proportion. Bastion isn't the "I Win button" and he can be focused and countered. When a team is coordinated, he is far scarier than when a team is just playing a pick-up/deathmatch style of play -- and I've witnessed both over the past few nights. I think complaints and praise of Bastion are both valid. I don't think he's perfect yet. But I do think there is a high amount of hyperbole around this particular situation.

In any event, will put some changes up and we're eager to hear your thoughts.
Highly Rated
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan

I want to share my personal opinion on Bastion (which is dangerous because I know I am a spokesperson for the game). I play every night. I'm playing both Quick Play and Competitive (I played 2 games of CTF to get my loot box). Over the past few nights I've played with, as and against Bastion. My perception is that he is a little too powerful right now.


THERE WE GO.

THANK YOU
Highly Rated
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
In any event, will put some changes up and we're eager to hear your thoughts.

Thank you for taking the time to respond in such a detailed manner. While I wasn't one who tested the Bastion changes on the PTR this go around due to being busy with life, the feedback on him from those who did test was almost universal, in that he was overbuffed.

You've said in developer updates that the PTR is used mostly for catching bugs, so I'll need to ask the obvious question; what's the point in putting these changes on the PTR instead of live when historically you guys have not made balance changes on the PTR based on feedback, and placing these changes on the PTR only limit the sample size of the data you can gather?

I'm glad you do seem to agree he's a bit overpowered right now, but it would be nice, given the length of time updates are on the PTR for, you guys could experiment more with balance changes on the PTR.
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback here, everyone. We know Bastion is a big focus for everyone right now. I've been playing online games since they existed and now working on them for almost 15 years. One of the things I've learned about online communities is that change -- any change -- can cause a lot of anxiety. Back when I was working on World of Warcraft, I used to say that if we mailed 500 gold to every player, the community would find some way to be upset about it... because change is bad.

With that said, we'll make some changes to Bastion and put them up on the PTR this morning. We'd love to hear your feedback about those changes when they go up. I don't have details right now because we're still making the changes!

I think it is interesting to reflect upon the idea of what the meta is, what the meta is perceived to be and what the meta should be. When I read some feedback about what the meta should be, I get the sense that for some people that means every hero in Overwatch is picked at the exact same rate (so everyone has a 4-5% pick rate). I'm not sure this is entirely realistic, nor do I think the game is necessarily better if this is the case. It might be and I would love to be wrong about that. One of the reasons that we try to keep all 4 of our game modes viable (I know the community thinks of it as 3 game modes or maybe 3.5) is because different maps and different game modes allow the meta to be more fluid. The more the community pushes us to eliminate maps or modes, the more the hero meta will stagnate. I totally agree that when the meta is too defined (i.e. people only play XYZ heroes) the game is less fun. So we need to watch for trends and adjust as needed.

One interesting thing is the actual meta vs. the perceived meta. The perceived meta is largely driven off of the professional scene and what gets played in tournaments. After those tournaments, really cool reports are written analyzing the pro scene. Those reports go out of their way to say that they are solely reflective of the pro scene and not necessarily representative of the playerbase at large. Yet people cite the pro pick choices as gospel. One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.

So often, the perception of what the meta is does not match what the actual meta is.

Balance changes can be very difficult to make when emotions run so high in the community. There is outrage if a hero does not get played a lot (like with Bastion or Symmetra). We make changes to make those heroes more viable which means they will get played more. The result is, people need to adjust to playing against Symmetra and Bastion more... and they are more powerful. We cannot just magically make Bastion get picked more so the stats look pretty and not make changes to make him more viable at the same time.

I want to share my personal opinion on Bastion (which is dangerous because I know I am a spokesperson for the game). I play every night. I'm playing both Quick Play and Competitive (I played 2 games of CTF to get my loot box). Over the past few nights I've played with, as and against Bastion. My perception is that he is a little too powerful right now. In particular, in one match I was playing Bastion and the enemy Tracer was trying to hunt me down. The Tracer player was clearly a better player than I am -- a very skilled individual. I relied heavily on my self-heal and the Tracer could not finish me off. But I was able to kill Tracer in recon mode almost through attrition. This part felt wrong to me. But a lot of the feedback I read feels wildly blown out of proportion. Bastion isn't the "I Win button" and he can be focused and countered. When a team is coordinated, he is far scarier than when a team is just playing a pick-up/deathmatch style of play -- and I've witnessed both over the past few nights. I think complaints and praise of Bastion are both valid. I don't think he's perfect yet. But I do think there is a high amount of hyperbole around this particular situation.

In any event, will put some changes up and we're eager to hear your thoughts.


And I will be eager myself to see how overwatch evolves, thanks Jeff.
Huge wall o insight

thank you

would love to read what your thoughts are on d.va and for that matter every hero

(my body is ready for the downvotes)

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