I Kinda Like The New Bastion

General Discussion
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03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
One interesting thing is the actual meta vs. the perceived meta. The perceived meta is largely driven off of the professional scene and what gets played in tournaments. After those tournaments, really cool reports are written analyzing the pro scene. Those reports go out of their way to say that they are solely reflective of the pro scene and not necessarily representative of the playerbase at large. Yet people cite the pro pick choices as gospel. One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.

If you don't mind my asking, what was her winrate in the various comp rankings? I think that's more useful information that just how often a character is picked (though winrate isn't the end-all of data either, as we previously saw with Symmetra).

If it helps illuminate the players' thinking at all, the reason people focus so much on the pro meta is because it's the best data we have on how characters perform when played to their top potential in coordinated teams. People perceive this as being the best test of just how strong characters and tactics are relative to each other because we don't have access to the data that you guys do.

Thanks for the communication, by the way. I always appreciate it when gave devs engage in discussions about these kinds of things with the players.
Jeff, I'm not sure I understand the logic of this Nerf. You said in your post you were able to kill a Tracer in recon due to self healing and attrition, and that felt wrong to you. So you Nerf sentry form.

I feel a slight disconnect here.
The bastion meta is !@#$ing stupid. Hes in every damn game.
zarya, rein, ana, mercy all keeping bastion alive and u cant even touch him unless u get the team out the way.

Team work that resolves around protecting one member is not fun. Once again the devs buffed a character too much.

Glad ur gonna make change tho..... but why not do all of this on ptr ffs?
Wow just thanks Jeff for the incredible insight! That is what we want more in the future if that's possible. :)
I'm not playing this broken game until bastion get's fixed...gg season 4
03/02/2017 09:00 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
They're NOT free!!! I **WORKED** for that loot box, thank you.


Out of all the developers across all the games I've played, you and the Overwatch team and the most endearing of all. Thank you not only for making a great game, but for also being an amazing guy.
I feel that we may need to address the giant four legged robot in the room... Orisa is far to good in her current state. I like the fact that Orisa fixes most of my pet peeves about tanks. She's has the most range as a tank, but the primary is very accurate and there doesn't seem to have damage over distance, and the weapon's spray seems almost minimal. There's not much incentive to fire bursts. Next the shield ability; even though the shield is weak, the shield itself is a bit too wide. Any other complains that I would have about Orisa would be that she seams to have far to many gimicks, or rather abilities. One could say that her slow speed compensates for most of these powerful abilities, but I would say that the slow speed is a minor set back. But of course I know that I am far from the first one to complain about Orisa
03/02/2017 01:34 PMPosted by Inertiatic
03/02/2017 01:06 PMPosted by ZenArrogance
I think my opinion sits at I'm happy there is a hard counter to the mandatory meta (Reinhardt).

The only problems I really ran into with Bastion was when he was nanoboosted, which only makes me think Damage Reduction should probably just hit a cap at say 55-60% and that's all. There was just no stopping it... No... Stopping....

Other than that, I'm ecstatic that a single champ can shred down Rein's shield so quickly and reliably that the team realizes they're just lugging around a short range meat shield... so... they opt to counterpick Bastion with Roadhog because by comparison to a non-shield Reinhardt, a Roadhog is better.

That is astounding! Also... I rarely play Junkrat, but when I picked him to counter Bastion with some simple geometry, that worked... Which is even more amazing news to me because that means some really low tier characters in the meta (who have generally been good at countering Bastion) might actually climb out of turmoil.


Giving positive feedback on the current most OP hero in the game while you're sitting at 500 SR doesn't lead me to believe you should be taken seriously

His SR has nothing to do with that comment sir.
Thank you for responding whole heartedly Jeff, the aesthetic of a personal opinion actually helped alot.

Thank you. Now about that wrestling match...
03/02/2017 09:18 AMPosted by Destian
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.


Is there any way you could publish these stats for the rest of us to see?

Right now, all we have to go on is what MasterOverwatch or similar sites tell us and they're saying Mercy is 8th in comp.

And I think I speak for most when I say that we'd love, love, LOVE access to more stats in general.

Just think of the number of complaint threads that could be shut down immediately by simply linking to OFFICIAL stats that show exactly why that person is wrong.

For example, someone suggesting that hero X is underpowered would be directed to the stats page where it shows things like pickrate, winrate, etc. and would be encouraged to change their mind. Over time, people would be discouraged from posting complaint threads without any prior research.

This would in turn make it easier to find threads with constructive and potentially valuable feedback, as they wouldn't be pushed off the front page in seconds by a series of complain threads.


Yes. More stats would be wonderful!
make OW great again , remove bastion from game . What about ppl who dont care for meta's and stuff we just wana fight again . Everything is around bastion now , mercy and zarya and tanks shield for bastion and the game is boring and not fun.
I dont see any masacres like before thanks to bastion
Jeff,

META is not the most played comps. Its the ideal stronger comps.

You can play mercy and sombra all you want but your winrate will suffer for it. So you feel "forced" into the meta which is a lose - lose situation. You either play what you enjoy and lose more or you play the meta and perhaps not enjoy yourself as much.

How about the winrate stats for mercy to go along your pickrate stats? Dont be shy to reveal the full picture.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753615925

I made a thread with my thoughts. As a Bastion main from S3 with over 50+ hours in S3 comp as Bastion, I do not like the sentry mode changes, it killed the hero for me. The rest of the changes were good, but I'd rather have that old spread/headshots back in exchange for the survival buffs.
Jeff Kaplan coming out with the facts.
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
One interesting thing is the actual meta vs. the perceived meta. The perceived meta is largely driven off of the professional scene and what gets played in tournaments. After those tournaments, really cool reports are written analyzing the pro scene. Those reports go out of their way to say that they are solely reflective of the pro scene and not necessarily representative of the playerbase at large. Yet people cite the pro pick choices as gospel. One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.


At what ranking? I can certainly see Mercy being incredibly powerful at bronze/silver/gold rankings, more so than Ana, but at plat and certainly diamond and above, Ana is going to overtake her. I'm not saying Mercy can't work at high SRs, and she certainly exists, but I really doubt that at Grandmaster she's 5th; probably closer to 12-15th.
03/02/2017 08:52 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback here, everyone. We know Bastion is a big focus for everyone right now. I've been playing online games since they existed and now working on them for almost 15 years. One of the things I've learned about online communities is that change -- any change -- can cause a lot of anxiety. Back when I was working on World of Warcraft, I used to say that if we mailed 500 gold to every player, the community would find some way to be upset about it... because change is bad.

With that said, we'll make some changes to Bastion and put them up on the PTR this morning. We'd love to hear your feedback about those changes when they go up. I don't have details right now because we're still making the changes!

I think it is interesting to reflect upon the idea of what the meta is, what the meta is perceived to be and what the meta should be. When I read some feedback about what the meta should be, I get the sense that for some people that means every hero in Overwatch is picked at the exact same rate (so everyone has a 4-5% pick rate). I'm not sure this is entirely realistic, nor do I think the game is necessarily better if this is the case. It might be and I would love to be wrong about that. One of the reasons that we try to keep all 4 of our game modes viable (I know the community thinks of it as 3 game modes or maybe 3.5) is because different maps and different game modes allow the meta to be more fluid. The more the community pushes us to eliminate maps or modes, the more the hero meta will stagnate. I totally agree that when the meta is too defined (i.e. people only play XYZ heroes) the game is less fun. So we need to watch for trends and adjust as needed.

One interesting thing is the actual meta vs. the perceived meta. The perceived meta is largely driven off of the professional scene and what gets played in tournaments. After those tournaments, really cool reports are written analyzing the pro scene. Those reports go out of their way to say that they are solely reflective of the pro scene and not necessarily representative of the playerbase at large. Yet people cite the pro pick choices as gospel. One thing that I found interesting was that there was a perception based on those reports and in the community that Mercy is never played. Yet according to our stats back during the "3 tank meta" when "Lucio and Ana were the only viable healers", Mercy was the 5th most played hero OVERALL -- and yes, I am talking about in Competitive Play, not Quick Play.

So often, the perception of what the meta is does not match what the actual meta is.

Balance changes can be very difficult to make when emotions run so high in the community. There is outrage if a hero does not get played a lot (like with Bastion or Symmetra). We make changes to make those heroes more viable which means they will get played more. The result is, people need to adjust to playing against Symmetra and Bastion more... and they are more powerful. We cannot just magically make Bastion get picked more so the stats look pretty and not make changes to make him more viable at the same time.

I want to share my personal opinion on Bastion (which is dangerous because I know I am a spokesperson for the game). I play every night. I'm playing both Quick Play and Competitive (I played 2 games of CTF to get my loot box). Over the past few nights I've played with, as and against Bastion. My perception is that he is a little too powerful right now. In particular, in one match I was playing Bastion and the enemy Tracer was trying to hunt me down. The Tracer player was clearly a better player than I am -- a very skilled individual. I relied heavily on my self-heal and the Tracer could not finish me off. But I was able to kill Tracer in recon mode almost through attrition. This part felt wrong to me. But a lot of the feedback I read feels wildly blown out of proportion. Bastion isn't the "I Win button" and he can be focused and countered. When a team is coordinated, he is far scarier than when a team is just playing a pick-up/deathmatch style of play -- and I've witnessed both over the past few nights. I think complaints and praise of Bastion are both valid. I don't think he's perfect yet. But I do think there is a high amount of hyperbole around this particular situation.

In any event, will put some changes up and we're eager to hear your thoughts.


Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful post. I just wanted to add my voice to the conversation for what it is worth. I absolutely agree with you about people having a perception of the meta, and that perception warps how people converse in this type of forum. I WISH people were involved in higher force in the PTR so they could generate an opinion of their own before touting the opinions of a small group of players.

That being said, I understand how frustrating it must be for the player base to lash out in the way they do, but unfortunately I feel that especially in this form of communication, people only feel their voice is heard if they are the ones yelling the loudest, It's probably not the best thing, but it's the way people feel.

Leading to my final point, Hyperbole it may be, but my personal experience with Bastion is a such: He is far too powerful in his current state (which you appear to agree with) I understand having to adapt and play against enemies doing something different to counter what your opponent is doing, and with time people will slowly get better at facing Bastion as time goes on (this game evolves and new changes ALWAYS feel bigger than they are because new stirs the pot). However, three players need a very loose form of coordination (i.e Mercy, Bastion, and Reinhardt) to create a powerful force (on offense or defense, perhaps not quite as viable in control maps, but still powerful) that requires the other team to be almost perfectly coordinated to focus down said team combo. There are 3 blaring issues with this, either 1) A team of 6 players who are skilled working together are required to counter the Bastion (This is not always possible, nor is it fair to people who enjoy playing this game by themselves ((I understand this is an unfair assessment as skill and other factors need to be considered, but I am simplifying a complex situation to make a bigger point))) 2) dedicating and entire focused attack on 3 Heroes leave the other 3 heroes on the Bastions team to have free reign to damage the team nigh un-harassed as they desperately try and kill a target who is damage resistant and dealing out a TON of damage (this is a huge issue when it feels like you have to prioritize the Bastion 100% or lose to the Bastion, and while it feels great when you finally kill boss Bastion, you have suffered great losses killing 1 target while the rest of the enemy team can just finish your weakened team off and give their Bastion time to set up again, no progress gained ((once again I will admit I am simplifying this for clarity))). And 3) It forces your team to pick the same team comp to counter (which is something you guys at Blizzard have said is exactly what you don't want) which sounds like "Hey Koriyashi suck it up and just pick the Bastion team to counter if you want to win, instead of complaining" but something I have LOVED about this game is I could always play the heroes I wanted to play and even if I had to change it up a bit, I had lots of options as to how I wanted to try and counter the team, not just giving up and picking, in your words, XYZ heroes and playing how everyone else was.

So, with the mouthful typed out (sorry for the long post, I just love this game and want my voice to be a part of helping this game stay something I love) Thanks for listening to us and thank you for bringing us a great game. I am eager to see what the new changes will do to calm down the Bastion craziness.

-Koriyashi
03/02/2017 03:17 PMPosted by Hoskuo
Jeff Kaplan coming out with the facts.


No,

Jeff Kaplan coming out with half the facts that suits his purpose.

Show winrates for mercy to go along with her pickrates. and compare it to the winrate / pickrates of others and you will have a much clearer picture.

Jeff also, as usual, is disconnected with the situation. He still believes that pickrate = meta and does not comprehend that the meta can negatively impact the playerbase.

As to how you fix the meta...thats a whole different ball game but lets get the basics out of the way first. Because unless you understand how the meta is damaging the game, the root cause issues if you will, you cannot comprehend how to fix it properly. This would explain a lot of recent questionable decisions.
bastion is more invincible than D.Va was
03/02/2017 02:16 PMPosted by Thomas
In this thread: Thousands of fake Bastion mains calling for nerfs, meanwhile, us peeps with over 50+ hours on Bastion played in past comp seasons are going to test him out.

Thousands indeed. How many posts are in this thread?

I could respond, "Or thousands of 50+ hour Bastion mains who want to keep their OP hero."

But I would like to be accurate. And the fact is, there are plenty of Bastion mains posting that they too think he's been a bit over buffed. I applaud them for their reason.
It has only been TWO DAYS since the Bastion changes went to the live servers, OF COURSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE PICKING HIM A LOT BECAUSE HE CAN ACTUALLY SURVIVE A FEW HITS AND NOT BE THREE SHOT BY ALMOST EVERY CHARACTER! Sure he can self heal through a lot of damage, BUT ONCE THAT SELF HEAL RUNS OUT HIS IS DEAD!!!!! NO ONE HAS EVER LIKED BASTION PERIOD, HE IS EVER EXTREMELY WEAK, NEVER PICKED, NEVER USED, and when he is picked, HE IS HATED ON BECAUSE HE CAN'T SURVIVE MORE THAN A FEW SECONDS IN A FIGHT!!! Then he is EITHER OVERPOWERED, AND ONCE AGAIN, PEOPLE HATE HIM, AND THEY ASK FOR HIM TO BE CHANGED BACK TO THE WAY THAT HE WAS! THERE IS NO MIDDLE WITH BASTION, ALWAYS HATED, AND EITHER NOT USED HARDLY AT ALL BECAUSE HE CAN'T LAST IN A FIGHT, OR ASKED TO BE GIVEN A MASSIVE NERF WHEN HE IS REWORKED IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE LONGER LIKE HEJUST WAS. The Bastion REWORK just came out, so his pick rate WILL I REPEAT WILL be higher because he works completely different now. GIVE THE BASTION REWORK TIME and his pick rate WILL MOSTL LIKELY drop VERY soon, you know why? BECAUSE THE REWORK CAME OUT TWO I REPEAT TWO DAYS AGO to the LIVE servers NOT EVERYONE COULD PLAY ONE THE PTR AND PLAY HIM, I COULDN'T BECAUSE I AM ON CONSOLE!!! Again Bastion, people just do not plain like him, he gets a buff, and PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY ASK FOR HIM TO BE NERFED BECAUSE THEY DO NOT LIKE HAVING A NICE TO PLAY BASTION WITH GOOD MOBILITY AND SURVIVABILITY AROUND, MAYBE TRY MOVING HIM INTO THE TANK CATEGORY SINCE HE IS SUPPOSEDLY "TOO TANKY NOW' well guess what? PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY THAT BASTION IS "TOO TANKY' WHENEVER HE IS EXTREMELY EXTREMELY RARELY BUFFED, NOT EVEN BUFFED, COMPLETELY AND 100% REWORKED TO SURVIVE LONGER IN A FIGHT AND TO DEAL WITH THE RIDICULOUS TANK META. HOW IS BASTION SUPPOSED TO KILL ONE OR TWO TANKS BEFORE THEY KILL HIM? HE HAS TO SURVIVE LONGER THAN THEY DO WHEN HE IS UP AGAINST 1,2 OR EVEN 3 TANKS ON THE ENEMY TEAM. HE HAS TO BE ABLE TO SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH AND BE ABLE TO KILL THEM BEFORE THEY KILL HIM!!! A change to the new REWORKED Bastion, a NERF to Bastion WOULD make it A LOT MORE DIFFICULT for a Bastion to destroy shields and deal with tanks. THAT IS WHY BLIZZARD COMPLETELY REWORKED BASTION TO BE A TANK AND SHIELD BUSTER IS SENTRY CONFIGURATION!!! HOW IS A BASTION SUPPOSED TO TAKE DOWN A REINHARDT SHIELD IF HE IS KILLED BY THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE ENEMY TEAM BEFORE HE CAN DO SO? HE CAN'T!!!!!!! THE IRONCLAD PASSIVE AND HIS SELF REPAIR ALLOW HIM TO LAST JUST LONG ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH A REINHARDT SHIELD AND THE REINHARDT. BASTION IS DIFFERENT NOW, GET USED IT!!!! SURE HE CAN SURVIVE A TRACER PULSE BOMB WHEN IN SENTRY CONFIGURATION NOW, BUT SOME IF ALL THE TANKS, ESPECIALLY REINHADRT, COULD SURVIVE IT ALL FULL HEALTH AND BE TAKEN DOWN TO HALF OR UNDER!!! The Bastion REWORK to make him more viable WAS MADE TO DEAL WITH THE TANK META, SO BASTION HAS TO BE "TANKY" IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH A FEW TANKS AT A TIME. IF YOU ARE NOT HAPPY WITH HOW HE IS NOW AS "TOO TANKY" THEN ASK BLIZZARD TO RECATEGORIZED HIM AS A TANK AND SHIELD BUSTER IN THE TANK CATEGORY!!! I HAVE PLAYED BASTION BEFORE HIS REWORK AND I WOULD DIE WHILE TRYING TO GET UP OUT OF SENTRY CONFIGURATION AND MOVE!!! I HAVE BEEN KILLED BY 3 PHARAH ROCKETS, 3 HANZO ARROWS, A SOLDIER SHOOTING AND FIRING HELIX ROCKETS BEFORE I CAN EVEN GET UP AND MOVE!!! THE IRONCLAD PASSIVE AND HIS REWORKED SELF HEAL ALLOWS HIM TO GET OUT OF THERE BEFORE YOU DIE WITHOUT EVEN GETTING A CHANCE TO SEE WHERE YOU WERE GETTING SHOT FROM, AND SHOOT BACK!!! IT WAS EITHER, GET SHOT A FEW TIMES, DIE BEFORE YOU EVEN GET A CHANCE TO SHOOT BACK, GET OPUT OF SENTRY CONFIGURATION IN TIME AND START ESCAPING, BUT THEN THEY FOLLOW YOU AND KILL YOU BEFORE YOU FIND A HIDING SPOT TO HEAL YOURSELF, OR GET SHOT A FEW TIMES, GO INTO RECON MODE, AND DIE BEFORE YOU EVEN START TO MOVE!!!! PEOPLE HAVE ALWAYS HATED ON THE PRE REWORKED BASTION BEING PICKED IN A GAME, BECAUSE OF HOW BAD HE WAS, NOW HE IS GETTING HATED ON BECAUSE HE ACTUALLY HAS THE ABILITY TO SURVIVE, AND THAT THEY CAN'T ALMOST INSTANTLY KILL HIM WHEN HE SEEN SET UP IN A CORNER!!!!! I am sorry for my huge rant, but people just have to get used to changes like this. Sure his pick rate is high right now, but at least give it 2-3 weeks for the "new" Bastion hype to die down, his pick rate will probably be high than it was before after that amount of time but it won't be as high as it is right now, when it is only two days after the Bastion rework was released to the live Overwatch servers, the higher pick rate might be partially due o that not everyone was able to access the PTR. The PTR is not available to console, so of course the Bastion pick rate would be high, people want to see how he plays now, give it some time, let the "new" Bastion hype die down, then check the Bastion pick rate again at that time, two days since launch, give it time, everything takes time. Also, the reworked Bastion will help with the introduction of the new hero and TANK Orisa that is currently on the PTR at the moment with her 400 health points, along with half of that being armor, she has her 900 health barrier. The reworked Bastion will also allow him to last survive longer when going up against Orisa, especially when she uses her fortify ability, Bastion- 35% damage reduction when in sentry configuration, Orisa- 50% damage reduction(I believe) when she uses her fortify ability.

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