McCree: Dev Silence, Misconceptions, & His Present State

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Highly Rated
WE'VE FINALLY RECEIVED AN ANSWER (SORT OF) ON JEFF'S AMA (3/13/2017): https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5yj2zk/comment/dew45ja

No comments on his viability, role in the game state, or his balance were made. Jeff only stated that he felt McCree was not "wildly underpowered" - nor does he know the opinion of the dev team as a whole. I agree that he is not wildly underpowered; however, this does not address the key issues that we are trying to illustrate here - which are the flaws in his kit that make the rest of it practically useless. Thus, hindering his overall performance in Overwatch. It seems to me that they do not have a consensus on McCree yet, which can be a good thing if we continue to argue constructively. This is a start.

Note: Let's continue contructively pushing our stance forth for McCree. Thank you all for supporting him, my posts, and the #fixhercowboy tag. You are all wonderful. I especially want to thank iSinner, my fellow McCree player, for being with me since the beginning and being such a great friend and influence in my posts as well as McCree's state. This post wouldn't be what it is without his help, and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all of you. Thank you everyone!

As per my previous thread on McCree, this is a continuation of the on-going process I know would not be a debate easily conquered; however, the same argument still stands from 6/2016 until this day:

McCree is not working as intended.

03/08/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
Ana had the biggest changes in this patch, and upon testing, feedback, and talking about it a ton internally, we decided to pull back on the nerfs a bit for this patch. The damage reduction on her weapon is significant, but if this ends up not being enough we can re-visit some further tuning. We don't want to swing her balance too wildly within a single patch.

What about McCree? I see that nerf reverts are happening. I think he is due for some too. Why weren't they as regulated as this, and looked after? Why were they so sloppy and rushed? Why are only SOME heroes worthy of this level of care and treatment; why not McCree?

We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This favoritism needs to end; why didn't McCree get this same amount of attention and care for his kit? As much as I love Ana, she clearly has favor with the developers as McCree was left to rot. The cowboy was the very first experiment for Blizzard and only now people are noticing this treatment with D.Va.; however, this cannot continue. So many heroes are due for nerf reconsiderations, McCree especially; yet Ana remains the most cared for hero on the roster. This is despicable. I want justice for McCree, as well as D.Va; but McCree players have waited long enough.

Geoff's Response: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753466793#post-13

My original post contains a directory of highly rated threads that illustrate the timeline of this debate (6/2016 - Present):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753339273#post-1

The mighty is capable of falling - what was once our hated (beloved to his players), tank shredding outlaw has now fallen to the ranks of rarely-used; solely because of the pure neglect that he has received since July 2016. This was the last thing to be said about McCree, until he was left forgotten:

07/18/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
We'll keep a close eye on balance. If something isn't right, we will take steps to address it.


McCree is no longer a valid pick:
https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-03-07-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-omnic-crisis-averted

The skill of his players is no longer sufficient to make him viable; we've done it for him, for months - but WE ARE NOT ENOUGH ANYMORE. We've adapted. We've "gotten gud". His LMB is no longer sufficient of a crutch to ensure his reliability - nor does it make a team feel safe. Soldier 76 does every single thing he does, but better. I request that we not nerf Soldier. I request that we buff McCree and bring him on par WITH Soldier.

Professional players such as IDDQD agree that McCree is not sufficient to rely on anymore with the newly revamped 76, SOLELY because he brings so much more to the table:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/5gx89y/iddqd_explains_why_mccree_is_no_longer_picked_at/

If a professional player can logically imply that a hero can bog down a game, even with their skill, at their level... That is a balance issue.

Just compare their overall performance on a global scale, on PC competitive:

McCree: https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree?mode=competitive

Soldier 76: https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/soldier76?mode=competitive

76 has auto aim, access to all of his abilities, a heal pool, rockets, etc - while using his Ultimate. McCree has a festive spirit and really bad luck.

Deadeye is statistically the WORST offense Ultimate in the game; clocking in at about 3.20 eliminations (PC, competitive). Yet what did that earn Deadeye? A nerf:

Patch Notes (Deadeye Nerf, 9/1/2016):
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749104703

How can you allow a hero to be so much better than another like this?

Deadeye and other various issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ngqK3ekjw

In addition to the massive contradiction that is McCree's skill requirement versus his reward; please review this aspect of his "weaknesses":
https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree

Genji is listed as one of his weaknesses. How does this make sense?

"We want McCree to be a counter to people like Tracer, Genji and Reaper."
- Jeff Kaplan

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-07-overwatch-blizzard-answers-the-big-questions

Then, FIX FLASHBANG. Allow it to stop momentum. Give it a reliable, consistent origin point. Countdown should begin only when the target is STATIONARY or grounded. We've been tooting this same rhythm for nearly a year - you've been called out on it; yet it is still blatantly ignored.

Flashbang Issues Illustrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaLyO1abZvU

A wonderful list of flashbang flaws, by iSinner:

03/08/2017 11:31 AMPosted by iSinner
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269

  • https://gfycat.com/UnripeSickAngora - Sombra is carried by the momentum behind cover, the flashbang is wasted just like hook was by jumping into cover, except the CD is 10s, not 6s
  • https://gfycat.com/HonestConcreteAuklet - i doubt a ROG eSports player will be able to land a shot on this one
  • https://gfycat.com/ScratchyGeneralBluet - Ana literally ended up on McCree's head after being flashbanged. I guess this is the closest we have to HATs yet.
  • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/PracticalTornCow - again, Dva landed on my head, are you trolling me at this point?
  • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/ShadyInfiniteGelding - Symmetra on my head, SERIOUSLY? how many times will this happen? stop trolling me blizzard
  • https://gfycat.com/DimDescriptiveEskimodog - carried by momentum outside of FOV, really?
  • https://gfycat.com/TiredNeedyArcticduck - doesn't stop swift strike(dash) either, but stops rein charge? 'fair'
  • https://gfycat.com/FirmObviousFrillneckedlizard

  • https://streamable.com/w5sk - if it stopped momentum, the whole thing would have played differently. I would have killed him, and i would saw the rein coming etc. This is just infuriating.
  • https://gfycat.com/AnxiousDelectableAlbacoretuna
  • https://gfycat.com/HappygoluckyAcrobaticArawana - why even use the flashbang if it doesn't stop the target? tracer just got a free escape card granted to her by the momentum
  • https://gfycat.com/WellmadeGrippingBangeltiger - same thing, perfectly executed flashbang escaped for free by momentum
  • https://gfycat.com/AjarWarpedCobra
  • https://gfycat.com/LikableEuphoricGalah - if she didn't get flashbanged, nothing would have changed. The skill literally had 0 effect on the situation, and again, free escape granted by momentum.
  • https://gfycat.com/LoneSilverBedbug - this is ridiculous, i stunned him and i still die, while he is being stunned? what?
  • https://gfycat.com/OpulentIllegalIggypops - who needs a skill to work in a critical situation, right? let's just appreciate how flashbang did jack all here to stop genji. Again, free escape granted by momentum
  • https://gfycat.com/UnfitSerpentineBandicoot
  • https://gfycat.com/HighlevelWeeklyAmericanavocet - this one looks more like the flashbang helped sombra to escape by bouncing her close to cover. This is just silly.
  • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/FlawlessAdorableAmphibian - "Ok, low health, ridiculously tiny target to hit... i have a plan, i need to flashbang her to secure a kill... F*CK" Who needs a skill to work, right?
  • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/PeacefulUntriedAlaskanmalamute - do i need piercing bullets to land this shot? how do i get access to them?
  • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/JubilantTerribleIlsamochadegu - "I will strategically bounce so that you can't see my head, i hope you like foot fetish"
  • https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YVrxFmheSc


This is a huge slap in the face of McCree players around the world.

McCree feels as if he has been set up for failure. His hitboxes are wildly exaggerated; as evidenced in this post (credit to hever50): https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5yc9i5/mccree_needs_some_changes/?st=J08ZDW9C&sh=fc48e645

To add, "McSniper" never existed; he was never a better sniper than Widow. Snipers have scopes and their distances begin at the minimum of 100m (true sniping). 35m is not sniping range (his highest dropoff distance, 7/2016) - plus, Overwatch maps do not allow for sufficient spacing to snipe; only part of why snipers like Widowmaker suffer. It is not an "exaggeration", nor a "phrase", it just makes those using it look uneducated. Assess your measurements and stop spreading misinformation. Terms have power, so be responsible.

With the power behind other heroes such as Soldier 76, Roadhog, and so forth; I am prepared for the downvote fury this may ensue - but tank shredder McCree may have a place in modern Overwatch - solely because of how it has evolved. The entirety of the game and cast has evolved; a hero limit for competitive and quick play has been incorporated. Arcade ("No Limits") does not have statistical player value weighed. The game is nearly a year old, and McCree has been watched for a while. When his first nerf came, it came at a time where there was no reliable statistics, no competitive mode, no hero limit, and barely enough time for people to perfect the game enough to be called "skilled" at it; so NATURALLY he'd be a force less tampered with. His nerf made sense at the time. But now, that power may have a place. After all, that first nerf was an emergency, rushed nerf only two-three weeks into the lifespan of the game. RUSHED.

His cooldowns and kit are all still representative of that very same build; they have not been adjusted nor fine tuned to adapt to the present day McCree. Combat roll has a higher cooldown than D.Va's booster jets (a tank; 5s, can push people off and do damage) and is only NOW equal to Roadhog's hook (another tank, hook WAS 6s, now 8s). Decrease the cooldown for Combat Roll to 6s; its his ONLY form of increased mobility. It is the only thing to support the most reliable part of his kit with a free reload - LMB.

A dilemma; Roadhog's hook stops momentum and pulls the target to the same point on the screen most times. Yet, flashbang still sits at a 10 second cooldown with an unreliable origin point, no momentum stopping, and a 0.7 second timer. To top it off, most of the lifespan of the game - Hook was 6s in cooldown while Flashbang remained at 10. And Hog ALSO gets a self-heal. A 600 HP tank can sustain himself better than a 200 HP squishy that wishes he had even an ounce of Hog's kit. Balance.

Fan-the-Hammer is another matter to tackle. Damage should be bumped to 330 maximum damage, have it's spread tightened, and maybe an increased unloading speed. In its present state; it is horribly unreliable and plainly unused - I use it because scrub lives matter and I want to have genuine faith in his kit; whatever state it is in.

I was hesitant to say this because of the stigma that surrounds it; along with the mob mentality that follows it - however, I will not be reluctant any longer DESPITE how hated the notion of it is. McCree is heavily biased against solely because of the first two weeks of the game, and only one week in July; for things beyond the control of his player base. Just because he was powerful at first does not mean that his kit should suffer for the remainder of the lifespan of the game.

McCree needs a true buff. Not a compensated buff, not a trade off. Not a cut from one aspect of his kit so that another part may benefit; no. A TRUE BUFF. Stop ignoring him already, he has been ignored the longest despite what anybody claims - and we actually have a timeline to back this. We will keep bringing facts until it is addressed.

As you can note, McCree is a beloved hero to me and others. During the Dice event, Jeff stated that he felt it was "sad" that some Americans see themselves in relation to McCree: https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5-mh2hJDaGQ&t=28m14s

Is that necessary? McCree is a wonderful representation, despite being a stereotype. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and relating to McCree and this just feels like a cheap shot at him, on top of the fact that his entire design feels set up for failure.

So I will finalize my statements with this. We have adapted to McCree, all iterations of him. I wouldn't have it any other way; we will continue to do so. But, it is time that he is cared for enough on the other end as well by those other than his fans and players - to be molded, shifted; so that HE may adapt as well. The bias needs to end. This treatment is spreading. It only started with McCree.

Thank you for your time, support, and attention in this matter. I genuinely appreciate it.

Continuation of: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753516877?page=1
Highly Rated
Thanks for your due dilligence NotMcCree.

I'm not really sure what's so hard about blue-posting a: "Thanks for your feedback, we're looking into him."
02/28/2017 03:41 PMPosted by NotMcCree
All I want is what is best for McCree. That hasn't changed, it is still my goal as it is many others. I am not here to fight over McCree, I am here to fight for him.


Crusade Leader Mrs. McCree. Thank you.
#fixhercowboy
man, that other thread grew fast.

but honestly, i really appreciate and admire how much effort you're willing to put into this issue, and i genuinely hope - for you, for us, and for overwatch in general - that things will change in the near future.

#fixhercowboy
#fixhercowboy

Thank you. You stand for all of overwatch as a symbol of hope.
Maybe they could extend the amount of time flash bang stuns for so that the player can get a clear shot on the target even if it moved a little since the stun. This would also help fth combo as now mccree doesn't have to fire as soon as he stuns and can look the enemy in the eyes and fth at a short distance.

Almost forgot #fixhercowboy
Mada mada
03/09/2017 01:32 PMPosted by acuite
man, that other thread grew fast.

but honestly, i really appreciate and admire how much effort you're willing to put into this issue, and i genuinely hope - for you, for us, and for overwatch in general - that things will change in the near future.

#fixhercowboy


Effort? More like copy and pasting the same crud over and over. Hopefully it goes downhill just as quickly.
Great thread, keep it up! The fight is not over yet.

03/09/2017 01:30 PMPosted by rokoh
Thanks for your due dilligence NotMcCree.

I'm not really sure what's so hard about blue-posting a: "Thanks for your feedback, we're looking into him."


You know, it wouldn't hurt their reputation to say:
"Thank you so much for your feedback. We are currently doing our best to address the issues regarding every hero in our roster. We will get to McCree, and others, soon enough."

Or even better.

"Thank you for your feedback. We will be posting a developer update tomorrow regarding character balance. We have not forgotten about McCree or any other hero. We have them in our radar and see your posts. We are working hard on deciding which changes will be best to implement first on the PTR. Stay tuned."

Neither of those response will create chaos. It will ease the community to know that not only have they responded but they are actually working on balance.
I hope you will receive blue statement here.

#fixhercowboy
I hope we will receive blue statement here.

#fixhercowboy


Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo."
03/09/2017 01:34 PMPosted by CBH
Effort? More like copy and pasting the same crud over and over. Hopefully it goes downhill just as quickly.


It clearly took effort to compile all of it in the first place, and since nothing has changed it would be pointless to post something different. The whole point of the thread is to show our opinions along with evidence, since neither have changed the OP doesn't really need to.

03/09/2017 01:39 PMPosted by CBH
Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo.


Yet we are asking for at least fixes to the bugs that affect McCree's flash bang, so if they are to tell us he is balanced we will take it, as long as they realise part of his kit doesn't always work the way it should.
03/09/2017 01:34 PMPosted by CBH
Effort? More like copy and pasting the same crud over and over. Hopefully it goes downhill just as quickly.


It clearly took effort to compile all of it in the first place, and since nothing has changed it would be pointless to post something different. The whole point of the thread is to show our opinions along with evidence, since neither have changed the OP doesn't really need to.

03/09/2017 01:39 PMPosted by CBH
Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo.


Yet we are asking for at least fixes to the bugs that affect McCree's flash bang, so if they are to tell us he balanced we will take it as long as they realise part of his kit doesn't always work the way it should.

Not to mention this thread is a continuation of the previous thread that was capped. The general idea of the pervious thread still lives on in this one. No need to anything else since all of not most of the issues relevant to the topic are being addressed.
03/09/2017 01:39 PMPosted by CBH
I hope we will receive blue statement here.

#fixhercowboy


Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo."

Huh, better than silence I guess. Also his name is McCree.
03/09/2017 01:34 PMPosted by CBH
03/09/2017 01:32 PMPosted by acuite
man, that other thread grew fast.

but honestly, i really appreciate and admire how much effort you're willing to put into this issue, and i genuinely hope - for you, for us, and for overwatch in general - that things will change in the near future.

#fixhercowboy


Effort? More like copy and pasting the same crud over and over. Hopefully it goes downhill just as quickly.
wait, you still here? i thought you returned to your cave
03/09/2017 01:39 PMPosted by CBH
...

Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo."

Huh, better than silence I guess. Also his name is McCree.

It's a trend with those who actually just post poorly thought out and irrelevant content. It starts with not spelling their sources correctly or getting their facts straight. Most who refer to McCree as Mcree usually have something negative to say about him.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo."

Huh, better than silence I guess. Also his name is McCree.
no it's mcdefinitelybalanced (btw that was sarcasm, he's so underpowered)
03/09/2017 01:41 PMPosted by Subnaraic
03/09/2017 01:34 PMPosted by CBH
Effort? More like copy and pasting the same crud over and over. Hopefully it goes downhill just as quickly.


It clearly took effort to compile all of it in the first place, and since nothing has changed it would be pointless to post something different. The whole point of the thread is to show our opinions along with evidence, since neither have changed the OP doesn't really need to.

03/09/2017 01:39 PMPosted by CBH
Only if it says "Mcree is balanced, you cheese filled cuckoo.


Yet we are asking for at least fixes to the bugs that affect McCree's flash bang, so if they are to tell us he is balanced we will take it, as long as they realise part of his kit doesn't always work the way it should.


Me:Roses are green
You: No, they aren't and here is evidence disproving that claim

1 day later
Me:Roses are green

There is no actual discussion or debate to be had here. OP is just reposting the same bull!@#$ over and over.

Idc about bug fixes. If there's a bug %^-*ing up an ability then get it fixed. But op is asking for buffs to enhance his cheesey playstyle.
...
Huh, better than silence I guess. Also his name is McCree.
no it's mcdefinitelybalanced

I thought it was McDenial
03/09/2017 01:48 PMPosted by NotMcCree
... no it's mcdefinitelybalanced

I thought it was McDenial
how about mchighno-AUGH?

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