McCree: Developer Repudiation & Why It Matters

General Discussion
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Highly Rated
Note: Let's continue contructively pushing our stance forth for McCree. Thank you all for supporting him, my posts, and the #fixhercowboy tag. You are all wonderful. I especially want to thank iSinner, my fellow McCree player, for being with me since the beginning and being such a great friend and influence in my posts as well as McCree's state. This post wouldn't be what it is without his help, and we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for all of you. Thank you everyone!

UPDATE:

Brand new video by Spumwack, the man who illustrated the flaws with his Deadeye and Flashbang (3/30/2017):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDpFrvd_7J4&feature=youtu.be

As per my previous threads on McCree, this is a continuation of the on-going process I know would not be a debate easily conquered. It is not a debate that will be easily put down either, for it has not be adequately addressed. The same argument still stands from 6/2016 until this day:

McCree is not working as intended.

My directory of highly rated threads that illustrate the timeline of this debate (6/2016 - Present): https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753339273#post-1

  • HERO BALANCING PROCEDURE
  • Jeff stated that there are three factors that Blizzard considers when determining hero balance. Community feedback, statistics (Blizzard API), and the developer perspective.

    When reworking Symmetra – statistics stated that she was in a good place. However, the developers and community both had a consensus that she was not as relevant as she could be; thus earning her a rework. 2/3 factors considered by Blizzard aligned to yield this result.

    McCree has had fatal flaws in his kit for nearly a year now. The community agrees that he is not in a strong spot. The statistics agree that he is not in a strong spot. All that is missing is developer acknowledgment/opinion. 2/3 factors align as they did with Symmetra; albeit different ones. Why is one factor, of which has not been considered, held in higher prestige than the remainder?

    Jeff on Hero Balance Procedure: https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5yj2zk/ama_request_jeff_kaplan/dew569w/

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20752543106?page=3#post-48

    Yet Jeff feels that McCree is not "wildly underpowered" (AMA, 3/13/2017):
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5yj2zk/comment/dew45ja

    While I do agree that he is not wildly underpowered, this does NOT address the main concern of his players; which are the flaws in his kit - something of which still has yet to receive any degree of developer acknowledgment despite being statistically present and a community consensus. The positive aspect of this statement is the fact that the developers still seem neutral on his kit; so if we continue to argue constructively and intelligently - we may have a good turnabout.

    03/08/2017 06:22 PMPosted by Geoff Goodman
    Ana had the biggest changes in this patch, and upon testing, feedback, and talking about it a ton internally, we decided to pull back on the nerfs a bit for this patch. The damage reduction on her weapon is significant, but if this ends up not being enough we can re-visit some further tuning. We don't want to swing her balance too wildly within a single patch.

    What about McCree? I see that nerf reverts are happening. I think he is due for some too. Why weren't they as regulated as this, and looked after? Why were they so sloppy and rushed? Why are only SOME heroes worthy of this level of care and treatment; why not McCree?

    Geoff's Statement: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753466793#post-13

    We don't want wild balance swings, but we are okay with so many major kit/role changes in under three months? Tank shredder McCree (6/2016), damage reduced/useless McCree (6/2016), 35m McCree (7/2016), animation cancel removed (hidden nerf, 8/2016), Deadeye nerfed (9/2016); and the present day McCree - who hasn't evolved with the game. This favoritism needs to end; why didn't McCree get this same amount of attention and care for his kit? As much as I love Ana, she clearly has favor with the developers as McCree was left to rot. The cowboy was the very first experiment for Blizzard and only now people are noticing this treatment with D.Va.; however, this cannot continue. So many heroes are due for nerf reconsiderations, McCree especially; yet Ana remains the most cared for hero on the roster. This is despicable. I want justice for McCree, as well as D.Va; but McCree players have waited long enough.

    The mighty is capable of falling - what was once our hated (beloved to his players), tank shredding outlaw has now fallen to the ranks of rarely-used; solely because of the pure neglect that he has received since July 2016. This was the last thing to be said about McCree, until he was left forgotten:
    07/18/2016 08:25 AMPosted by Jeff Kaplan
    We'll keep a close eye on balance. If something isn't right, we will take steps to address it.

    The balancing bias needs to end. This is illustrated in the most recent Lucio changes; ones nobody requested that only serve to improve the tank comp.

  • MCCREE OVERVIEW
  • McCree is no longer a valid pick:
    https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2017-03-07-overwatch-hero-tier-list-and-meta-report-omnic-crisis-averted

    The skill of his players is no longer sufficient to make him viable; we've done it for him, for months - but WE ARE NOT ENOUGH ANYMORE. We've adapted. We've "gotten gud". His LMB is no longer sufficient of a crutch to ensure his reliability - nor does it make a team feel safe. Soldier 76 does every single thing he does, but better. I request that we not nerf Soldier. I request that we buff McCree and bring him on par WITH Soldier.

    Professional players such as IDDQD agree that McCree is not sufficient to rely on anymore with the newly revamped 76, SOLELY because he brings so much more to the table:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiveoverwatch/comments/5gx89y/iddqd_explains_why_mccree_is_no_longer_picked_at/

    If a professional player can logically imply that a hero can bog down a game, even with their skill, at their level... That is a balance issue.

    Just compare their overall performance on a global scale, on PC competitive:

    McCree: https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree?mode=competitive

    Soldier 76: https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/soldier76?mode=competitive

    In addition, his hitboxes are absurdly exaggerated. His hat, his serape; all extremely large and out of proportion for a rather average sized man; as evidenced in this post (credit to hever50): https://www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/5yc9i5/mccree_needs_some_changes/?st=J08ZDW9C&sh=fc48e645

  • DEADEYE (ULTIMATE)
  • Patch Notes (Deadeye Nerf, 9/1/2016):
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20749104703

    Deadeye is statistically the WORST offense Ultimate in the game; clocking in at about 3.21 eliminations (PC, competitive). Yet what did that earn Deadeye? A nerf. 76 has auto aim, access to all of his abilities, a heal pool, rockets, etc - while using his Ultimate. McCree has a festive spirit and really bad luck.

    How is this balanced?

    Deadeye Flaws Illustrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ngqK3ekjw

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Remove the delay that occurs after inputting the command to fire. There is no reason a hitscan character should have a delay like this. Why is it a projectile? This should be a must.
  • Increase the rate at which locks latch onto enemies.
  • Target priority. Low HP enemies, exposed enemies, etc. should be shot at rather than following the right-to-left pattern we have now which often allows once-vulnerable enemies that were successfully locked on a chance to escape.
  • Reduce the ridiculously bright red glow and his loud call out.
  • Allow him access to his abilities, such as flashbang and roll; just like Soldier 76.
  • Increase his walking speed or do not hinder it at all.
  • Give him some resistance/armor/increased HP/shields upon the activation of Deadeye to provide some sustainability.
  • Instead of having his Ult call out be directional (disclosing his position) - it should be a global call out; disallowing enemies the chance to discover his positioning based on the direction of his callout. (Recommended by iSinner)
  • All of these should not be combined obviously, but any combination or even single addition would help McCree's underperforming Ult.

  • FLASHBANG
  • In addition to the massive contradiction that is McCree's skill requirement versus his reward; please review this aspect of his "weaknesses":
    https://www.overbuff.com/heroes/mccree

    Genji is listed as one of his weaknesses.

    "We want McCree to be a counter to people like Tracer, Genji and Reaper."
    - Jeff Kaplan

    Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-06-07-overwatch-blizzard-answers-the-big-questions

    Then fix flashbang; quite possibly the most inconsistent part of his kit.

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Momentum stopping. This should be a must. Roadhog's hook stops momentum; why does flashbang not do the same? McCree even has voicelines such as "hold on", "don't move" which imply that the target should stop. Yet, THEY DON'T.
  • Enable it a reliable, consistent path. This should be another must. There are times where flashbang originates, only to wrap around enemies and miss in the most absurd ways. See the video provided.
  • The countdown should begin only when the target is STATIONARY or grounded.
  • Possible increase from 0.70 seconds to 0.90 or a full second.
  • Flashbang Issues Illustrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaLyO1abZvU

    A wonderful list of flashbang flaws, by iSinner:
    03/08/2017 11:31 AMPosted by iSinner
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20747796269

    • https://gfycat.com/UnripeSickAngora - Sombra is carried by the momentum behind cover, the flashbang is wasted just like hook was by jumping into cover, except the CD is 10s, not 6s
    • https://gfycat.com/HonestConcreteAuklet - i doubt a ROG eSports player will be able to land a shot on this one
    • https://gfycat.com/ScratchyGeneralBluet - Ana literally ended up on McCree's head after being flashbanged. I guess this is the closest we have to HATs yet.
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/PracticalTornCow - again, Dva landed on my head, are you trolling me at this point?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/ShadyInfiniteGelding - Symmetra on my head, SERIOUSLY? how many times will this happen? stop trolling me blizzard
    • https://gfycat.com/DimDescriptiveEskimodog - carried by momentum outside of FOV, really?
    • https://gfycat.com/TiredNeedyArcticduck - doesn't stop swift strike(dash) either, but stops rein charge? 'fair'
    • https://gfycat.com/FirmObviousFrillneckedlizard

    • https://streamable.com/w5sk - if it stopped momentum, the whole thing would have played differently. I would have killed him, and i would saw the rein coming etc. This is just infuriating.
    • https://gfycat.com/AnxiousDelectableAlbacoretuna
    • https://gfycat.com/HappygoluckyAcrobaticArawana - why even use the flashbang if it doesn't stop the target? tracer just got a free escape card granted to her by the momentum
    • https://gfycat.com/WellmadeGrippingBangeltiger - same thing, perfectly executed flashbang escaped for free by momentum
    • https://gfycat.com/AjarWarpedCobra
    • https://gfycat.com/LikableEuphoricGalah - if she didn't get flashbanged, nothing would have changed. The skill literally had 0 effect on the situation, and again, free escape granted by momentum.
    • https://gfycat.com/LoneSilverBedbug - this is ridiculous, i stunned him and i still die, while he is being stunned? what?
    • https://gfycat.com/OpulentIllegalIggypops - who needs a skill to work in a critical situation, right? let's just appreciate how flashbang did jack all here to stop genji. Again, free escape granted by momentum
    • https://gfycat.com/UnfitSerpentineBandicoot
    • https://gfycat.com/HighlevelWeeklyAmericanavocet - this one looks more like the flashbang helped sombra to escape by bouncing her close to cover. This is just silly.
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/FlawlessAdorableAmphibian - "Ok, low health, ridiculously tiny target to hit... i have a plan, i need to flashbang her to secure a kill... F*CK" Who needs a skill to work, right?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/PeacefulUntriedAlaskanmalamute - do i need piercing bullets to land this shot? how do i get access to them?
    • [[[[[NEW]]]]] https://gfycat.com/JubilantTerribleIlsamochadegu - "I will strategically bounce so that you can't see my head, i hope you like foot fetish"
    • https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1YVrxFmheSc

    This is a huge slap in the face of McCree players around the world. This has been consistently pointed out; yet we receive no fixes. Not even acknowledgment. This is not okay. This can happen to any hero at any given time.

    Roadhog's hook stops momentum and pulls the target to the same point on the screen most times. Yet, flashbang still sits at a 10 second cooldown with an unreliable origin point, no momentum stopping, and a 0.7 second timer. To top it off, most of the lifespan of the game - Hook was 6s in cooldown while Flashbang remained at 10. And Hog ALSO gets a self-heal. A 600 HP tank can sustain himself better than a 200 HP squishy that wishes he had even an ounce of Hog's kit. Balance.

    It gets worse:
    To add insult to injury, McCree players seldom get the chance to utilize the full 0.70 seconds of flashbang time even during a successful execution. How you may ask? Immediately after tossing flashbang, McCree has a brief animation where he pulls his revolver back; a slight "recovery window" where he cannot shoot - regardless of whether or not the flashbang has already landed on the enemy or not.

    The travel time for flashbang is 0.30 seconds. During the "recovery window" where McCree pulls the revolver back and cannot shoot, he actually can cut 0.30 seconds of time off of his 0.70 total stun time. You cannot do anything in this small window until the animation is complete; regardless if the flash has hit or not. Flashbang was meant to be utilized in combination with Fan the Hammer; however, Fan-the-Hammer cast time is approximately 0.67 seconds. Explain to me this; how can you successfully execute a flashbang and fan-the-hammer combo with a 0.70 total stun time, a 0.30 recovery window where you cannot shoot, and a 0.67 total cast time for fan-the-hammer?

    You can't. The combo of flashbang+fth is flawed at it's core and does not function as it is advertised.

    After months of pushing for improvements, pointing out fatal flaws, and bringing hard facts to the table - we finally get flashbang updates only to be rewarded with --
  • McCree no longer receives credit toward his on-fire meter when his Flashbang is used against Mei’s Ice Wall

  • If anything needed to be fixed in Blizzard's eyes, it was the on-fire bonus that he received from those dangerous Ice Walls. This change, to the weakest - most flawed part of his kit. Shameful. The bias against McCree has never been more obvious as every hero around him receives improvements while he is left behind, ignored - but don't worry. He has skins coming.

    Source (Patch Notes, 3/21/2017): https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753508356#post-5

  • COMBAT ROLL
  • His cooldowns and kit are all still representative of the original June 2016 launch build that hid all of his core flaws so well due to his sheer power. They have not been adjusted nor fine tuned to adapt to the present day McCree. Combat roll has a higher cooldown than D.Va's booster jets (a tank; 5s, can push people off and do damage) and is only NOW equal to Roadhog's hook (another tank, hook WAS 6s, now 8s).

    Suggested Improvements:
  • Decrease the cooldown for Combat Roll to 5s. It is his ONLY form of increased mobility; despite never truly being purposed as a mobility device. If there is no intention to fix fan-the-hammer, repurpose roll to a mobility device and more frequent free reloads to support the only viable part of his kit - LMB.
  • Increased resistance to damage during the roll.
  • Increase the distance of the roll from 6m to 8m.
  • Again, roll was never intended to be a mobility device; but if Blizzard genuinely has zero intentions on making FtH reliable again - may as well make it a mobility device.

  • FAN-THE-HAMMER

  • Fan-the-Hammer is extremely under-used and for good reason. It is outshined by LMB in every way possible; forces a 1.5 second reload, and has a 0.67 total cast time - leaving a full chambered execution to last about nearly 2.5 seconds when rounded up. Every second matters in a fast paced game like Overwatch; when weighing the risk/reward of utilizing FtH - there is almost no value to it unless you are shooting at a shield, a tank, and have a roll to follow up with it. The RNG spread is horrible, 45 damage per bullet is quiet low, and ultimately; LMB is just superior for those with great aim - practicality matters. This rules out one entire part of his kit; unfair considering that every hero should rely on and use every part of their kit.


    Suggested Improvements:
  • Damage should be bumped to 330 maximum damage; 55 per bullet.
  • The spread should be SLIGHTLY tightened to allow for a more precise execution. Spread should not be tightened in extreme amounts, to avoid him from using this as a ranged tool.
  • An decreased overall casting speed (increase the unloading speed).
  • Reduced recoil.
  • The RNG aspect should be completely removed; there should be a consistent pattern to his bullets.
  • I utilize FtH because I wish to have genuine faith in his kit; but it destroys accuracy and generally doesn't provide as much as it seems to.

  • CONCLUSION
  • McCree feels as if he has been set up for failure.

    He needs a true buff. Not a compensated buff, not a trade off. Not a cut from one aspect of his kit so that another part may benefit; no. A TRUE BUFF. Stop ignoring him already, he has been ignored the longest despite what anybody claims - and we actually have a timeline to back this. We will keep bringing facts until it is addressed.

    McCree is heavily biased against solely because of the first two weeks of the game, and only one week in July; for things beyond the control of his player base – all because of a simplistic mob mentality. Just because he was powerful at first does not mean that his kit should suffer for the remaining lifespan of the game.

    With the power behind other heroes such as Soldier 76, Roadhog, and so forth; I am prepared for the downvote fury this may ensue - but tank shredder McCree may have a place in modern Overwatch - solely because of how it has evolved. The entirety of the game and cast has evolved; a hero limit for competitive and quick play has been incorporated. Arcade ("No Limits") does not have statistical player value weighed. The game is nearly a year old, and McCree has been watched for a while. When his first nerf came, it came at a time where there was no reliable statistics, no competitive mode, no hero limit, and barely enough time for people to perfect the game enough to be called "skilled" at it; so NATURALLY he'd be a force less tampered with. His nerf made sense at the time. But now, that power may have a place. After all, that first nerf was an emergency, rushed nerf only two-three weeks into the lifespan of the game.

    As you can note, McCree is a beloved hero to me and others. During the Dice event, Jeff stated that he felt it was "sad" that some Americans see themselves in relation to McCree:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5-mh2hJDaGQ&t=28m14s

    Is that necessary? McCree is a wonderful representation, despite being a stereotype. There is nothing wrong with being patriotic and relating to McCree and this just feels like a cheap shot at him, on top of the fact that his entire design feels set up for failure.

    So I will finalize my statements with this. We have adapted to McCree, all iterations of him. I wouldn't have it any other way; we will continue to do so. But, it is time that he is cared for enough on the other end as well by those other than his fans and players - to be molded, shifted; so that HE may adapt as well. The bias needs to end. This treatment is spreading. It only started with McCree.

    Thank you for your time, support, and attention in this matter. I genuinely appreciate it.

    Directory:
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753339273#post-1
    1:
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753516877?page=1
    2:
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753436811?page=1
    Highly Rated
    #fixhercowboy

    Nice updates to the op, good figures. Keep fighting for your cowboy, mrs. mccree.
    Highly Rated
    McCree's issues have been in the game since launch. Sadly, they were overshadowed by how ridiculous his Fan the Hammer used to be. Since the game was relatively young, people were still learning the rest of the cast. Now that people have mastered other characters and their play styles, McCree's flaws are even more evident. Not to mention the power creep with Soldier 76 and other heroes have really brought to light the issues that were drowned out by the mob mentality against him for his original FtH iteration.

    #FixHerCowboy
    #fixhercowboy

    I'm still here to support you, as are many others, keep going! We'll achieve our goal one day.
    Highly Rated
    Fix McCree. Fix Dva! Fix all underperformers.

    #fixhercowboy
    03/17/2017 10:26 PMPosted by Xanikk
    Fix McCree. Fix Dva! Fix all underperformers.

    #fixhercowboy

    FIX HIS WAIFU!
    #FIXHISDVA
    Hura also makes interesting points about McCreaper76 (roadhog) in this comparisons to McCree,
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/overwatch/topic/20753597675 .

    McCree still needs changes, and here you are still taking a stand for him. Hopefully thread #3 might be the smoke in the developers eyes.

    #fixhercowboy
    Give the big guy some love

    #fixhercowboy
    03/17/2017 10:30 PMPosted by Annorax
    Give the big guy some love

    #fixhercowboy

    Big cause of his T H I C C hitbox

    #FixHerCowboy
    this post means a lot to me, and im hoping it gets the attention it deserves. as a mccree player ive noticed how he just doesnt feel quite good at all anymore, and im hoping he gets some updates to fix that. im sick of only playing lucio in comp lol
    I'd feel more confident trying McCree in QP once he gets these much-needed changes. He's not a sniper class, so the ability to aim well shouldn't be all he needs to be "viable".
    Present. At this point aftet seeing the recent pseudo-rework on lucio i really don't know what to say in merit... just that EVERY character in the game at this point has been looking at, except McCree... who has been left in the dust... our cowboy must be kinda sad and depressed, the same applies to Reaper. Nothing needs to be added, NotMcCree has really expressed everything about McCree and all of his current problems pursued over time as well as possible.

    Jeff, Geoff, Balance team, whoever from Blizzard who will read this, PLEASE consider McCree as one of the next priority for the next balance patch, he in all honestly REALLY needs some changes right now, in the current state McCree just doesn't have an identity and a role anymore in this game. Show some respect in his regards, at this point is unfair considering the time McCree is in this state and after all the changes received until the last September consisting of Nerfs, and some of them implemented in the wrong way (For example the nerf on his range when they made him a sniper and his minimum damage at max Fall-Off hasn't been restored to 35 but keeped at 20, this is in my opinion one of the biggest flaw). Thank you.

    I support you NotMcCree, keep it up, you represent all of the McCree players that are asking for justice at this point from months.

    #FixHerCowboy
    Keep up the good work NotMcCree. Justice ain't gonna dispense itself. Keep fighting the good fight. You've got my support.

    #fixhercowboy
    Congratulations, you have received the Purple Heart for your dedication and bravery amongst the Keyboard Warriors.

    Godspeed,
    Staff Sergeant Jane "Safari" Doe
    God bless you NotMcCree, I feel you have got the point out there, we just need the eyes to fall on the problem we put into the light.

    God Bump America,
    Hm....

    Sombra obviously sucks.
    Reaper can only rip the pie.
    McCree has no High Noon since mid of 2016.

    So, we will nerf Ana, and Lucio :D

    #fixhercowboy
    Glad Jeff sees that not every needs major buffs since the meta had changed. If it wasn't for Jeff, Geoff probably would have McSniper or McRightClick back.
    Given the amount of threads on McCree these past weeks, I am severely disappointed in Blizzard for their lack of response.

    Considering they'll instantly respond to a 3 post thread about Sombra...

    ...Very disappointing.
    03/18/2017 02:59 AMPosted by DigitalNinja
    Given the amount of threads on McCree these past weeks, I am severely disappointed in Blizzard for their lack of response.

    Considering they'll instantly respond to a 3 post thread about Sombra...

    ...Very disappointing.
    anyone know any cool spells to summon jeff kaplan

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